Re: First impressions after a long break.
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:42 am
<chortles>cim wrote:Of course, if anyone wanted to go for solving those - and other - issues, it's basically all OXPable.
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<chortles>cim wrote:Of course, if anyone wanted to go for solving those - and other - issues, it's basically all OXPable.
There's often some aggressor in the lot that also has injectors, so it's not always possible to just leave. Leaving with injectors often results 1-on-1, which I find quite nice.cim wrote:...
11) Once a fight is started, it basically must end in the destruction of one side. (Unless you have injectors, and then you can basically leave any time you like)
...
Sure and all sorts of OXPs float around changing this and that, but the original issue was the approachability of the core game for a new player.cim wrote:Of course, if anyone wanted to go for solving those - and other - issues, it's basically all OXPable.
Indeed - but I would expect attempts at a fix to end up going up a lot of dead ends and failed prototypes before actually finding a solution which worked. My point is that a move to start working on this sort of thing would be much more practical to do as an OXP to show it would work, rather than trying to get consensus based on theories of how it might work in advance for a core game change.spara wrote:A lot of points there, cim. But then again, the game has to evolve to survive. Players change, so the game should adapt. I think.Sure and all sorts of OXPs float around changing this and that, but the original issue was the approachability of the core game for a new player.cim wrote:Of course, if anyone wanted to go for solving those - and other - issues, it's basically all OXPable.
You have a fair point there, but the problem at hand is very hard to test through OXPs. It's often advised that a new player should not load OXPs as the game is already balanced and even without that advise I would assume that the game is usually tested without OXPs. To properly test the changes from a fresh players perspective would require a batch of fresh players to play the game for the first time with those changes. I'm fairly sure that granting injectors as a starting equipment would be a winner, but that's purely hypothetical of course .cim wrote:Indeed - but I would expect attempts at a fix to end up going up a lot of dead ends and failed prototypes before actually finding a solution which worked. My point is that a move to start working on this sort of thing would be much more practical to do as an OXP to show it would work, rather than trying to get consensus based on theories of how it might work in advance for a core game change.spara wrote:A lot of points there, cim. But then again, the game has to evolve to survive. Players change, so the game should adapt. I think.Sure and all sorts of OXPs float around changing this and that, but the original issue was the approachability of the core game for a new player.cim wrote:Of course, if anyone wanted to go for solving those - and other - issues, it's basically all OXPable.
Literary skills? <grins> I could probably write something for the alternative way (that only took nineteen ship-days).spara wrote:But if someone with some literary skills wants to write an inspirational "welcome to the game" letter, I'm happy to wrap up an OXP to test it.
A letter would be one way of doing it - although essentially it would just be a shorter version of Mr Gimlet, and people would forget much of it as soon as they launched. A better (but more complicated) approach might be to have a final leg of the tutorial, where "an old space-hand" accompanies the player on the first flight and talks you through the procedures in return for a lift to Zaonce (or Leesti: arguably, the Leesti-Diso milk run is a better place for beginners). If possible, the entire first trip could be scripted, with built-in pauses while "what's happening" is explained. And the old hand could even take over and dock the player at the end of the trip, to show them how it's done.spara wrote:How about some sort of initial mission? When starting a new game a letter from a relative could be shown setting some random background
Britnoth wrote:The economy is completely whack.
This is very true - and personally, I think the easiest, and best, solution to this is a radical one (and here we move very much toward Cim's "space trading-combat game loosely in the spirit of Elite"): ditch the whole idea of player trading entirely.cim wrote:The trade goods are pretty boring and don't take system danger into account, and there's really only two economy types and one plausible trade good each way
Like your start choices oxp (which I'm a fan of), I think such things work best with a few options.spara wrote:I actually have an idea .
How about some sort of initial mission? When starting a new game a letter from a relative could be shown setting some random background
So you'd get your lovely Mk III 'start' but you have to fetch it yourself from the opposite corner of the galactic map. The delivery is too costly/problematic for it to be delivered to Lave so the company have provided you with a new Adder fitted with ECM and fuel injectors (chance against missiles and faster ships). Should you make it, you would have to hand over the Adder but get your new shiny Mk III and any profits that you might have made along the way. Even if the Adder were also fitted with an energy unit it would hardly be an upgrade but the new player would have a realistic chance of fleeing from trouble, some protection against missiles and a reason to understand the variety of economies and governments with some urgency...Hello, I'm here to collect my new Cobra MkIII.
Ah yes, Jameson is it? This way please sir...
I'm afraid there has been something of an... issue with your order.
Issue? What sort of an issue?
With the delivery.
You mean it isn't here?
Not exactly sir, no.
Where the hell is it then?
Inines.
...
It is in the same sector, sir.
AT THE OTHER }@%ING END OF IT!... When will it be arriving?
I'm glad you asked me that sir, it relates rather strongly to the issue I mentioned earlier...
Do-able but the main issue with the trading is that it's designed around a Mk III both in terms of quantity and profit margins. In an Adder, trading progress is very slow wheras in an Anaconda there isn't enough to buy at just one station. Personally, I rather like the generic commodity list as it remains relevant across systems with very different inhabitants and (presumably) cultures. Even the elite manual made trading sound as though there were better prices to be had at the more dangerous systems. My ship variation oxp (WIP) makes trading a little more interesting based on sytem inhabitants. Astrobe's point about the game becoming easier rings true here.Disembodied wrote:ditch the whole idea of player trading entirely.
Or rather, ditch the idea that the player picks and chooses their cargo, item by item. Seriously. Dump it. Forget the economics of interplanetary trade, forget supply-and-demand: the in-game economy has only one purpose: to allow the player to earn money, to keep their ship flying and to afford more and better stuff.
Here’s a quick attempt (n.b. I don’t think you can sell the Pulse laser any more: you can swap it around, but it’s not worth any cash). I've added in a paragraph at the end to offer a small parcel delivery.spara wrote:The way I found the game was through Debian's repository. I did not read anything when I started playing, I just started the game. I was familiar with Elite of course. I did not know that the wiki or forum existing. So I would say that all initial information should be in game. Tutorial is good, but something scripted to get going in game might also be in order. Nothing fancy, just a little something to help the player survive the first few jumps and make a little profit. A simple parcel mission might also work here.
A reduced version (200 words):Well, here it is: a Cobra Mark III starship of your very own, and 100 credits to the good. Don’t say I don’t keep my promises. And now the bad news: this ship is weak, and vulnerable, and most anyone could cut you open to find out what’s inside. You need to trick her up, fast, and 100 credits won’t do. Before you even think about getting in a shooting match, you’ll need to fit her with Witchdrive Fuel Injectors and a Beam laser. In that order: with a cherry ship like yours, it’s more important to be able to run away than it is to fight back.
So you need money, and you need it quick. You need to find something that you can afford, that’s produced here on Lave, and take it where you can sell it at a profit. Lave’s an Agricultural planet, so Food, Textiles, Liquor and Wines are all cheap. Furs, too, though not so much, here, and they own’t bring you much profit on this run. Get yourself some booze, if you feel lucky, or just pack in as much Food as you can and go for the bulk. If it were me, I’d plot a course to Zaonce: they’ll give you the best prices, and Corporate worlds have regular police patrols, so you should be safe. Ish. Nowhere’s really “safe” these days. Still, if you do meet trouble, there’s one thing you can do: give them what they ask for. Swallow your pride, drop a few canisters, and get the hell away.
Sell what you got at Zaonce, then look to take on what they’re selling - Machinery, Computers and Luxuries are Industrial staples - and ship them on to an Agricultural world. Isinor’s a better bet than Lave: they’re poorer, and the prices are better, and an inward trip to Lave is none too safe. If you can afford it, keep a few canisters of cheap stuff aside: they might buy you safe passage, until you can fight back. Work the margins, stay alert, and keep away from trouble if you can. If you live long enough, you’ll earn enough to improve your survival chances further. I’d wish you luck, but trust me: wishes and luck won’t be enough.
One final thing: if you do go to Zaonce, take this package for me. It’ll be collected at the other end, and you’ll get a few credits for your trouble. You can look for other jobs like this, but fair warning: some jobs might attract unwelcome attention.
Well, here it is: a Cobra III, and 100 credits. But before you even think about combat, you’ll need to fit her with Witchdrive Fuel Injectors and a Beam laser. In that order: right now, running away is more important than fighting back.
So you need money, quick. Buy something that’s cheap here, and sell it at a profit. Lave’s Agricultural, so Food, Textiles, Liquor and Wines … get yourself some booze, if you feel lucky, or just pack in lots of Food. Zaonce will give you the best prices on those, and Corporate worlds are safe. Ish. If you do meet trouble, give them what they ask for. Drop a few canisters, and run.
At Zaonce, buy what they’re selling - Machinery, Computers and Luxuries - and ship them to an Agricultural world. Isinor, rather than Lave: an inward trip to Lave is none too safe. If you can afford it, keep some cheap stuff aside, to buy you safe passage if you have to.
If you do go to Zaonce, take this package: you’ll get a few credits for your trouble. You can look for other jobs like this, but fair warning: some jobs might attract unwelcome attention.
You certainly can - 400Cr (Oolite 1.84).Disembodied wrote:I don’t think you can sell the Pulse laser any more...
The first view is just a dead end. Sounds entirely resistant to change. If you want a purely nostalgic experience, there are always emulators.cim wrote:I would say regarding Oolite's balance and general playability that there are three general strands of thought for what sort of game Oolite should be:
- as faithful a reimplementation as possible of the original Elites (inc Elite+) on modern hardware
- a modern reimplementation of Elite with its own extensions and feel
- a space trading-combat game loosely in the spirit of Elite
Generally I think in practice it fits somewhere between the 1st and the 2nd, and given what the project is moves towards the 3rd would be immensely controversial.
+ many other interrelated issues.cim wrote:2) The trade goods are pretty boring and don't take system danger into account, and there's really only two economy types and one plausible trade good each way
I wouldn't throw out the simple trade system from the original game without at least trying to fix it first.Disembodied wrote:Or rather, ditch the idea that the player picks and chooses their cargo, item by item. Seriously. Dump it. Forget the economics of interplanetary trade, forget supply-and-demand: the in-game economy has only one purpose: to allow the player to earn money, to keep their ship flying and to afford more and better stuff.
Adder was always an oversized system shuttle. Being able to witch jump just means it is also a scout ship. Like a large sidewinder. Neither were implied to be capable of trading I think.In an Adder, trading progress is very slow
This is exactly the point I would make to anyone complaining this is going too far away from the original game.Redspear wrote:Even the elite manual made trading sound as though there were better prices to be had at the more dangerous systems. My ship variation oxp (WIP) makes trading a little more interesting based on sytem inhabitants. Astrobe's point about the game becoming easier rings true here.
Space Traders Flight Training Manual wrote:Agricultural planets invariably have excess produce at reasonable prices, and food sells well at industrialised, middle- to high-technology worlds. Raw materials, and ores, will sell well to middle-tech worlds, which are usually able to refine them. and the refined product can fetch excellent prices at worlds of very high tech status.
The rules are complex, and anarchy and piracy has its effect on causing the rules to change.
In trading with a planet, consider its economic profile:
Agricultural worlds need specialist food and raw materials, but mostly basic machinery and spare parts. If they are rich, they need luxuries and high tech industrial machines. They produce food in quantity, raw materials and specialised 'organic' items, like some textiles.
Industrial worlds need agriculturual produce; raw materials (for refining); resource exploitation machiner; (if rich) high tech goods. They produce basic items of need for civilised worlds: beds, seals and gaskets, power storage units, basic weapons, mass produced fertiliser, mass produced medicines etc.
Think about a planet's needs.
Think what might make the society function.
Don't trade expensive trivia to a hungry world.
Always felt that the game was intended to have a much more subtle trading game than what it had. Perhaps due to time or memory contraints it was cut, but reading the manual heavily implies that it was not intended to be just a 2 system type galaxy, and both economy type, wealth, government type, and tech level would all affect different commodities to different degrees.Space Traders Flight Training Manual wrote:(Concerning Dictatorships):
Lave is an agricultural world, and Enzaer an industrial planet, but a similar principle operates on both surfaces. There are two trading standards, that of the people and that of the Aristocracy. Standards of living are artificially generated, a veneer of progress, and luxury goods, machinery and textiles sell well - usually. The great demand, however, is for basic commodities, especially foodstuffs, clothing and raw materials. These will sell well when the voice of the People has been raised in protest.
(Concerning Anarchy planets):
Anarchic worlds will trade readily in narcotics, slaves, firearms and exotica, and the price will be good... if you get a price at all.
...
These worlds pay heavily for goods they cannot produce themselves, because they know that traders avoid them. Their own products need specialised, illegal outlets: weaponry, narcotics, eavesdropping devices... if it's covert, then anarchic worlds are producing it. Trade in these items and you will get rich quick, or dead quick, or at least become a 'Fugitive'.
This can be smoothed out, too, with a shift to cargo contracts. Each contract is essentially one item: a Cobra III with a cargo bay extension could maybe find two small one-jump contracts, from one moderately busy system to a neighbouring system: the commander would have to look to take on a few two- or three-jump contracts to fill the hold, and hope to pick up more contracts to fill the gaps left by successful deliveries. An Adder pilot could probably subsist on just short-range, single-jump trips. The total profit would be lower for an Adder pilot but it would be much easier to use the cargo bay efficiently, without leaving empty spaces in the hold, and the Adder pilot wouldn't have to tie up so much money in deposits.Redspear wrote:Do-able but the main issue with the trading is that it's designed around a Mk III both in terms of quantity and profit margins. In an Adder, trading progress is very slow wheras in an Anaconda there isn't enough to buy at just one station.Disembodied wrote:ditch the whole idea of player trading entirely.
That's what I don't like about it: it assumes that "Food" is the same wherever you go. Kæstur hákarl might command high prices in Reykjavik, for example, but not so much in Tel Aviv (or indeed anywhere outside of Iceland, but you get the point! ).Redspear wrote:I rather like the generic commodity list as it remains relevant across systems with very different inhabitants and (presumably) cultures.