Oolite Bulletins

richard.a.p.smith wrote:

The frequency of these attacks is way over the top; are they really expected every single jump, even with one contract?

That does seem a bit OTT, just from the economics of the situation. It makes sense that someone could have taken out A hit (singular) on the player, but paying for multiple hits all along the route seems excessive for all but the most sensitive of items.

richard.a.p.smith wrote:

I did read in another thread a suggestion that fewer but deadlier attacks would be better and I agree - sort of an inverted random hits thing, with fugitive thugs in tough ships attacking or even following if you don't kill them (is that possible?).

Makes sense - although a reduced risk/less work for the player would have to be balanced by a reduced level of profit on the run. What might be nice would be to have assassins lying in wait at one or more specific systems on the way (the player won't know which ones), giving the player the chance to try to balance speed against safety by perhaps taking a longer/less direct route and, with a bit of luck and skill, dodging the bad guys altogether. Of course, it would always be possible for the player to be intercepted at the WP of the final destination - but if that's a stable system like a Corporate State or a Democracy then the frequency of Viper patrols will make it difficult for assassins (especially non-Clean assassins) to lie in wait at the WP and successfully target the player there.

Thanks for the reply there - yes, it seemed excessive and detracted from enjoyment (it's boring pressing "0" and waiting until the scanner's clear).

One thing I just realised is that maybe this is to do with the galaxy. I went through to G5 doing the in-built missions and then went about amassing enough money for a supercobra by doing parcel and passenger runs. To be fair at certain points I did have a lot of both and can understand having multiple contracts BUT I did have several points where it was only one or two and there were thugs every single jump. I even had multiple attackers when I had no contracts at all. Anyway, the possible point here was that it was in G5. I went back to G1 fairly directly once I got the SC and here the attackers seem less frequent. Would that be expected?

Cheers

Richard

Disembodied wrote:

What might be nice would be to have assassins lying in wait at one or more specific systems on the way (the player won't know which ones)...

That's kinda how it is in trunk. Last night I flew through half a dozen systems without any assassins attacking me at all - but I knew they were waiting somewhere along the way! I certainly don't see forty of them at a time - twenty yes, but that is rare now.

richard.a.p.smith wrote:

... it's boring pressing "0" and waiting until the scanner's clear.

The cloak is virtually useless for that in trunk now (against high-level assassins, anyway - and against high-level pirates too)!

Cody wrote:

Disembodied wrote:

What might be nice would be to have assassins lying in wait at one or more specific systems on the way (the player won't know which ones)...

That's kinda how it is in trunk. Last night I flew through half a dozen systems without any assassins attacking me at all - but I knew they were waiting somewhere along the way! I certainly don't see forty of them at a time - twenty yes, but that is rare now.

Good stuff! I suppose too that with multiple packages you'll get multiple contracts taken out against you.

It might be interesting if, occasionally - when the player has really got right up the nasal appendage of a big enough crime syndicate - there might be a Viper in the mix of assassins? A bent copper? There would need to be some way to flag this up to the player, to make it clear it was an intended event and not a bug, but it could be entertaining ...

As I understand it every parcel has a chance (from Zero to High) to generate assassins at the Witchpoint - there's a post from cim somewhere . So jumping into dangerous systems (which also increase the chance) will a ship full of them could result in multiple generations of assassins each for a different parcel. I don't think I've ever seen as many as 40 but have encountered 4-5 groups of 4-5 assassins at times.
I also believe that the courier mission is remembered for a little time after delivery, so you can still be attacked as no one's called off the hit.

Random Hits can also generate revenge hits. So mixing this with courier services could be extra spicy

Disembodied wrote:

... when the player has really got right up the nasal appendage of a big enough crime syndicate

I see it as rival corporations/governments/factions who hire the assassins, not crime syndicates. Is there an assassins guild of some sort? Would that qualify as a crime syndicate? I wonder! They would definitely carry a grudge though, that's for sure!

Disembodied wrote:

... there might be a Viper in the mix of assassins? A bent copper?

That would fit - I've often had the impression that Vipers tend to go missing whenever assassins are attacking me!

Cody wrote:

I see it as rival corporations/governments/factions who hire the assassins, not crime syndicates. Is there an assassins guild of some sort? Would that qualify as a crime syndicate? I wonder! They would definitely carry a grudge though, that's for sure!

Yes, true enough - and one person's crime syndicate is someone else's legitimate business ...

Disembodied wrote:

richard.a.p.smith wrote:

The frequency of these attacks is way over the top; are they really expected every single jump, even with one contract?

That does seem a bit OTT, just from the economics of the situation. It makes sense that someone could have taken out A hit (singular) on the player, but paying for multiple hits all along the route seems excessive for all but the most sensitive of items.

The economic model I have in my head for this is that the assassin bounties are similar to the Galcop ones: there's a statement "300 credits for the death of <passenger>" and whoever gets the kill gets the money. That way a single offer - if it's big enough - can potentially get hundreds of assassins on your head.

Meanwhile the assassins often don't go for hunting particular people down - there's enough such bounties out there that hanging around dangerous bottleneck systems with a list of recently-offered bounties and checking everyone that jumps in can pay perfectly well.

As regards the attack frequency:
- bottleneck systems get more assassin packs
- low-government systems get more and larger assassin packs, containing more dangerous ships
- the number of packs per system is normally capped at two - but every high-risk contract currently onboard increases this cap (these extra are the ones specifically after you personally) and also increases the potential number generated

An assassin pack will attack if:
- you are a successful enough courier that you have made enemies who've put a bounty on you personally rather than your cargo. This applies regardless of whether you're currently carrying anything. Lie low and pretend to have been scared out of the couriering business in favour of something safer, and most of them will probably reassign the bounty budget to someone who has angered them more recently.
- you are currently carrying a medium- or high-risk parcel/passenger, and they're able to target your ship to confirm identity (high-risk implies better intelligence on the part of your client's enemies, so this confirmation is usually much quicker here). This check is made separately for every active contract, so if you're carrying three high-risk contracts and a couple of mediums, the chances are they're going to spot you immediately. One medium-risk contract ... there's a fair chance you can hit the injectors and get out of scanner range while they're still looking your ship ID up on their lists.

Assassins are clean because they don't attack when there are cops around (and tend to hang around in systems where that's likely to remain true) - and if a cop shows up, they move on to another system to clear their record before returning to work. Hanging around the witchpoint is necessary to intercept couriers reliably; you don't want to do that with an active Galcop bounty or you just know a bounty hunter pack is going to jump in two minutes before your target does...

Thanks for that explanation, cim. I can see the reasoning and, as said, think it's a reasonable idea, it's just there was something about all the attacks that became dull and - from an enjoyment perspective - a little irritating, to be honest. At present I've gone off passenger contracts and it seems to be less of a problem as it's just parcels I'm doing now. I still think the frequency was too high, though. To make a living from carrying passengers around you need to move a few but it only takes a few to summon all kinds of trouble really quickly - but the amounts of money involved are not often high enough to warrant the danger compared with trading; ten jumps with thugs at every jump for 200 credits? Perhaps it's the way I was playing it - I didn't go out of my way to avoid dangerous systems, I did have a few contracts, and so on, maybe it's just that.

Cheers

Richard

richard.a.p.smith wrote:

Perhaps it's the way I was playing it - I didn't go out of my way to avoid dangerous systems

Also.. since, as you mentioned, it's been a while since you played Oolite, you may not be fully aware that 'dangerous' systems in 1.80 are rather more dangerous than they used to be in earlier versions. And 'safe' systems are now considerably more safe than they used to be. The spread across the political spectrum has undergone considerable rebalancing. Also, unlike before, neighboring systems make a difference to the relative safety of a given system. A Corporate State with a number of Feudal and Anarchic neighbours is likely to suffer from regular raids from those systems, whereas life in a CS surrounded by Confederate and Democratic systems will be considerably more sedate.

One thing which might be worth considering is the number of packages and passengers which attract assassins. It might be better if these were relatively uncommon, so that the player gets an "Oh no!" moment of surprise rather than a "Here we go again" feeling. Of course, it's necessary to balance risk versus reward, but the main challenge of most courier and passenger delivery missions should be selecting the optimal route (balancing risk against speed) to reach the destination on time.

Perhaps those who want to intercept (or even just delay) a package or a passenger might try a softer approach, in less urgent circumstances? Maybe the player could be met in a station en route and "persuaded" - by threat or bribe, or both - to drop the contract? "That package you're carrying to Ususor: if it arrived a little late, my colleagues would be grateful ...": if the player fails the contract, their reputation takes a hit and they don't get paid - but they might get paid slightly more for missing the deadline by these Shady Types (and perhaps, under the hood, their reputation might take a rather bigger hit than for a normal failed delivery if rumours leak out that they'd been bought out this way).

Disembodied wrote:

the main challenge of most courier and passenger delivery missions should be selecting the optimal route (balancing risk against speed) to reach the destination on time.

The issue is that a pure courier - hold filled with passenger cabins and a few parcels on the side - has a 0-cargo ship and won't be attacked by pirates. A courier/miner could have similar benefits (they have hold space, but pirates don't attack miners). Keeping clean is easy enough to stop police and bounty hunters, and traders obviously won't attack them.

The assassins are basically there to ensure that the low-government systems remain dangerous for a courier, making the "few jumps or short time" decisions to be more than just about pressing 'h' a few more times.

I could certainly adjust the risk-generation balance on contracts, to make most contracts low-risk, and most of the rest medium-risk. (There is also a slight bug with the "long memories" attacks, which I'll fix before 1.82, which makes them a bit more common than they should be)

A long-distance high-risk contract can easily have a 5-figure (and possibly even 6-figure) payout, though, so for that sort of money I think there should be some tough opposition.

Disembodied wrote:

Maybe the player could be met in a station en route and "persuaded" - by threat or bribe, or both - to drop the contract?

I like this idea - the contract system is currently quite basic in general, so an OXP which made more of it could certainly do this.

Disembodied wrote:

One thing which might be worth considering is the number of packages and passengers which attract assassins. It might be better if these were relatively uncommon, so that the player gets an "Oh no!" moment of surprise rather than a "Here we go again" feeling. Of course, it's necessary to balance risk versus reward, but the main challenge of most courier and passenger delivery missions should be selecting the optimal route (balancing risk against speed) to reach the destination on time.

I think this already exist, as you make a choice based on the description & reward for the package how dangerous it will be - don't expect a delivery of legal documents across the galaxy for 10 000Cr to be a walk in the park. If you don't want the attention then stick to the low risk ones and do something else as your main money earner - delivering the post could cover fuel costs.
I think it is a good idea to differentiate a 'courier' from an casual 'post man' here. With a courier the delivery of parcels/passengers is their main (sole) job, and should be expected to have associated dangers - hence the big Cr rewards. However someone who for example is a trader and takes a few packages on the side is not expecting high risks but should be thinking why is this person willing to pay so much for me to deliver a package? Do I want the hassle?
The question here is the old how obvious do you make the danger in the choice of parcels? I think it's about right as it is, as with a little thought it's possible to distinguish most of the dangerous from the the safe. (Edit:Addition) Especially if the prospective courier has taken the time to think about why they can't take certain jobs as they don't yet have the reputation.
I agree that the time & route management is an important element to the role, but I don't think it should be viewed as the sole reason for playing that role. Further the need to be aware of the choke points, potential dangerous systems and ways around these all adds to the route/time management.

From a game playing perspective - playing as a solely parcel courier in an Asp for example, will pretty much only be attacked by assassins. With out them the role would be very dull

Disembodied wrote:

Perhaps those who want to intercept (or even just delay) a package or a passenger might try a softer approach, in less urgent circumstances? Maybe the player could be met in a station en route and "persuaded" - by threat or bribe, or both - to drop the contract? "That package you're carrying to Ususor: if it arrived a little late, my colleagues would be grateful ...": if the player fails the contract, their reputation takes a hit and they don't get paid - but they might get paid slightly more for missing the deadline by these Shady Types (and perhaps, under the hood, their reputation might take a rather bigger hit than for a normal failed delivery if rumours leak out that they'd been bought out this way).

I like your thinking here Adding some variations / deviations to the whole process could be fun.

cim wrote:

I could certainly adjust the risk-generation balance on contracts, to make most contracts low-risk, and most of the rest medium-risk. (There is also a slight bug with the "long memories" attacks, which I'll fix before 1.82, which makes them a bit more common than they should be)

Personally I think it's fine as it is. I'm wondering if some of the problem here is the combat ability of the assassins (and all AIs) in 1.80 which has been addressed in 1.81.