Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

[Falcon777]

Eh, nvm, forget what I said about "spot trading" not being viable into mid game. The sheer number of jumps that you have to make on a nice, profitable run with multiple passengers and parcels compared to a similar number of jumps between systems while doing "spot trading" means that you can probably make more money the traditional way (exception of cargo contracts of course, but that requires a very large amount of capital to take advantage of to begin with, not to mention an anaconda).

The idea of parcels and passengers that want to go to another galactic chart, however, is totally AWESOME! The fact that doing so automatically requires you to spend (at least, for only one jump) 5k means that they would all have to have a baseline payment depending on how far away they are. This could, in its own way, allow for a courier/passenger carrier to compete with those cargo contracts that are comprised of platinum/gemstones.

As to the 8 item cycle, is there any reason why you couldn't just take the remaining two commodities and lump them in with another commodity somewhere along the cycle and that those two would be dependent upon tech level/government type instead of economy type?

Edit1: the idea of having certain commodities illegal depending upon government type is also a great idea. The fact that you can't trade in firearms sometimes seems silly given that fact that many people are allowed to own guns, though that depends upon which country you live in. Narcotics are certainly illegal to own and use personally, unless of course you're injured and got a prescription. The slave trade is completely despicable and should be outlawed and prevented everywhere, but human trafficking still happens.

[mossfoot]

I like the ideas but please keep Alien Items. They could be made into another wildcard like Narcotics, but legal.

I think one thing that needs to be done is to remove Alien Items from the list of possible cargos carried by NPCs (unless, of course, they have actually scooped some dead Tharglets). It's always seemed odd to me to find cargo canisters with Alien Items in them.

You know Tharglets don't have to be the only "alien items" out there Maybe they're carrying artifacts from an alien world's archaeological dig

[cim]

The idea of parcels and passengers that want to go to another galactic chart, however, is totally AWESOME!

The difficult thing at the moment is that the game can't read data from any chart except the one it's in, so calculating how long should be allowed for a journey (or even naming the destination system accurately) isn't easy. That's solvable, but not quite yet.

Here's my first thoughts:

Radioactives as a power source for an industrial process makes a lot of sense and is something I hadn't considered. Minerals as an agricultural import for fertiliser likewise. Thanks to you and Zireael for the suggestions.

Is there anyway that along with changing the boring rich industrial to poor agriculture milk run aspect that trading commodities could become slightly more viable for longer term profits?

Hard to say. Trading is the aspect of the game that takes the least equipment: you need a ship. I don't mind so much if other lines of work turn out to be more profitable once you've equipped your ship with equipment beyond the large cargo bay and can actually do them - it's an investment.

Bounty hunting (with salvage) and piracy are always going to be more profitable than trading simply because you don't have to buy the trade goods in the first place (and a lucky break with a single escape pod or precious metals barrel can more-or-less pay for the fuel scoop in one go)

[Venator Dha]

Here's my first thoughts:

Radioactives as a power source for an industrial process makes a lot of sense and is something I hadn't considered. Minerals as an agricultural import for fertiliser likewise. Thanks to you and Zireael for the suggestions.

No, it's we who should be thanking you for all the work you're doing.

Bounty hunting (with salvage) and piracy are always going to be more profitable than trading simply because you don't have to buy the trade goods in the first place (and a lucky break with a single escape pod or precious metals barrel can more-or-less pay for the fuel scoop in one go)

Balanced somewhat by the bigger repair bills given one is actively looking for fights. Having a NEU damaged or worse destroyed hurts the bank balance

[Falcon777]

Is there anyway that along with changing the boring rich industrial to poor agriculture milk run aspect that trading commodities could become slightly more viable for longer term profits?

Hard to say. Trading is the aspect of the game that takes the least equipment: you need a ship. I don't mind so much if other lines of work turn out to be more profitable once you've equipped your ship with equipment beyond the large cargo bay and can actually do them - it's an investment.

Bounty hunting (with salvage) and piracy are always going to be more profitable than trading simply because you don't have to buy the trade goods in the first place (and a lucky break with a single escape pod or precious metals barrel can more-or-less pay for the fuel scoop in one go)

As I said in my last post, don't worry about it. A truly profitable run for parcels and passengers generally requires you to go cross chart and take multiple parcels and passengers. Going on a cross chart journey involves many jumps. Once you take into account how many jumps are required to do so, that "measly" 1400 credits per every half of the round trip between a rich industrial world and a poor agricultural world suddenly doesn't seem so small. On top of that, if the 8 item system is put into place, I wouldn't be surprised if involved in that was a dramatic change to how much profit was available per tonne canister for many of the commodities. This would then close the "gap" even farther between "spot trading" and contracts available under the f4 button.

[mossfoot]

Just want to say I do support this thread's overall goal and look forward to what ultimately gets hammered out

[mossfoot]

With all this talk of economic changes, I can't help but wonder if it's worth exploring some of the ideas the X-series of space trade sims brought to the table...

What about this idea (and forgive me if it's mentioned earlier) - the Main Coriolis station is a central trading hub, with similar functions and prices that are currently used.

But each system also has one or more secondary stations that have specific raw materials they desperately need (buys at a better price) and produces something in bulk (sells at a better price)

Or perhaps all the materials in the standard list are "raw materials" and what they produce is something else (a variation on Additional Cargo Types). So like maybe a station desperately needs Computers and Radioactives to produce Hyperspace Scanners, which can be sold at main stations.

[Zireael]

With all this talk of economic changes, I can't help but wonder if it's worth exploring some of the ideas the X-series of space trade sims brought to the table...

What about this idea (and forgive me if it's mentioned earlier) - the Main Coriolis station is a central trading hub, with similar functions and prices that are currently used.

But each system also has one or more secondary stations that have specific raw materials they desperately need (buys at a better price) and produces something in bulk (sells at a better price)

Or perhaps all the materials in the standard list are "raw materials" and what they produce is something else (a variation on Additional Cargo Types). So like maybe a station desperately needs Computers and Radioactives to produce Hyperspace Scanners, which can be sold at main stations.

That's a cool idea, but unless you mean already existing equipment and commodities, it's something better left to an OXP once the plist rework goes in.

[mossfoot]

With all this talk of economic changes, I can't help but wonder if it's worth exploring some of the ideas the X-series of space trade sims brought to the table...

What about this idea (and forgive me if it's mentioned earlier) - the Main Coriolis station is a central trading hub, with similar functions and prices that are currently used.

But each system also has one or more secondary stations that have specific raw materials they desperately need (buys at a better price) and produces something in bulk (sells at a better price)

Or perhaps all the materials in the standard list are "raw materials" and what they produce is something else (a variation on Additional Cargo Types). So like maybe a station desperately needs Computers and Radioactives to produce Hyperspace Scanners, which can be sold at main stations.

That's a cool idea, but unless you mean already existing equipment and commodities, something better left to an OXP once the plist rework goes in.

Could go either way. I figured the discussions in this thread would end up being used in plist debates and OXP ideas.

I should note that the secondary stations those raw materials and products produced would be exclusive. In the example given it wouldn't have any demand for most of the other supplies (maybe some like food for workers, though)

[Venator Dha]

One of the problems with the current system is that if someone want's to they can just go back and forth ad infinitum between two milk run planets.

I have a suggestion to make this less attractive:

Once a ship has docked a number of times (say 3) at the same planet within a defined time period, they are 'asked' to join the local hauliers association, with membership fee and unloading charges. If they decline they find that the best goods are not available to buy and the sale prices are poor. This would mean they either have to pay up, thus reducing their profit, or move on to another route.
The association's prices could be higher for larger ships - they aren't too worried about one man in a Cobra Mk I, but some guy in an Boa or Anaconda would catch their attention.

Just a random thought

[Falcon777]

One of the problems with the current system is that if someone want's to they can just go back and forth ad infinitum between two milk run planets.

I have a suggestion to make this less attractive:

Once a ship has docked a number of times (say 3) at the same planet within a defined time period, they are 'asked' to join the local hauliers association, with membership fee and unloading charges. If they decline they find that the best goods are not available to buy and the sale prices are poor. This would mean they either have to pay up, thus reducing their profit, or move on to another route.
The association's prices could be higher for larger ships - they aren't too worried about one man in a Cobra Mk I, but some guy in an Boa or Anaconda would catch their attention.

Just a random thought

Not a bad idea, though I would imagine that the 8 commodity/economy type system would fix that issue just about as easily....well, to a certain extent. Now that I think about it, doing an 8 commodity run helps so far as including more commodities and economy types within a milk run, but it doesn't necessarily prevent a player from staying within the same 8 planetary systems.

So, something akin to what you have suggested, Venator Dha, would probably help that particular issue a lot. I guess, though, sheer boredom from lack of change helps too. I know nearly quit doing milk runs after doing a "million and one" of them on my python while attempting to earn enough money for my first (or rather, only) ubership.

[spara]

One of the problems with the current system is that if someone want's to they can just go back and forth ad infinitum between two milk run planets.

I don't think that the wanting part here is the problem, it's the inevitable dullness that follows from jumping between two systems.

I have a suggestion...

I don't think it's a good idea to try to force the player to do something in a sandbox game by saying: "You've been here long enough, move along please."

Not a bad idea, though I would imagine that the 8 commodity/economy type system would fix that issue just about as easily....well, to a certain extent. Now that I think about it, doing an 8 commodity run helps so far as including more commodities and economy types within a milk run, but it doesn't necessarily prevent a player from staying within the same 8 planetary systems.

8-ring will add a lot more variety to the game and there will most probably be some unfriendly systems in the loop making it much more interesting. That said, I don't think that the possible 8-system loop is a problem.

[Neelix]

8-ring will add a lot more variety to the game and there will most probably be some unfriendly systems in the loop making it much more interesting. That said, I don't think that the possible 8-system loop is a problem.

Agreed. I think that ideally there should always be a 'most profitable commodity to buy' for a given destination with a different economy with view to selling on arrival. As it stands now, there is little reason to travel to anything other than a poor agri or rich ind system just for legal trading, except as an intermediate step to get from one to the other. (or when searching for a good price for goods you already have where the price is not closely tied to the economy) When I was first starting out I found this confusing and thought perhaps I was just missing something. I also think the 8 commodity loop would give the player a lot more motivation to explore the galaxy early in the game.

- Neelix

[Malacandra]

That's certainly how it works in Merchant of Venus, a board game from the late 1980s. Cultures are numbered from 1 to 10 and goods from any culture can be sold only to the next three (10 wraps around to 1 so, say, goods from culture 9 can be sold to 10, 1 or 2). That means that players have to look for at least four cultures if they'd like to get a nice milk run going - and not only does the board come with a map that's hard to navigate in places, but the cultures are assigned randomly every game.

MoV also has a demand system that means that a culture that is desperate for a few tons of "Finest Dust" will pay highly for it, but as the stuff's shipped in the demand will evaporate and the price drop, to build up again over time.

[Switeck]

Eh, nvm, forget what I said about "spot trading" not being viable into mid game. The sheer number of jumps that you have to make on a nice, profitable run with multiple passengers and parcels compared to a similar number of jumps between systems while doing "spot trading" means that you can probably make more money the traditional way (exception of cargo contracts of course, but that requires a very large amount of capital to take advantage of to begin with, not to mention an anaconda).

Cargo Contracts are perfectly workable with a Python -- especially if you get the Large Cargo Bay with it so you can haul 115 TC instead of 100 TC. Even without shell game tricks, you can have 2 cargo contracts going at a time because there's many that are 30-65 TC in size. The problem in Oolite v1.80 is the cargo contracts take your slow Python through many dangerous systems it's ill-equipped to survive because it can't have military shields and is unlikely to have a naval energy unit or cloaking device. Its 2 missile slots are likely not enough to make up the difference. The Boa 2 on the other hand is as fast as some fighters, much tougher, and has 5 missile slots...and with its 175 TC cargo capacity makes a great ship for cargo contracts. (It really should cost far more than a Boa 1!)

The idea of parcels and passengers that want to go to another galactic chart, however, is totally AWESOME! The fact that doing so automatically requires you to spend (at least, for only one jump) 5k means that they would all have to have a baseline payment depending on how far away they are. This could, in its own way, allow for a courier/passenger carrier to compete with those cargo contracts that are comprised of platinum/gemstones.

Needing to do a Galactic Jump does not require that such a contract pay at least 5k credits, especially since they may be hoping to "tag along" with a ship that was already intending to do a Galactic Jump for other reasons. But a big problem is arriving at a new Galaxy Chart currently reduces your contract reputation to 0. The region simply hasn't heard of your "exploits"...or doesn't care yet.

As I said in my last post, don't worry about it. A truly profitable run for parcels and passengers generally requires you to go cross chart and take multiple parcels and passengers. Going on a cross chart journey involves many jumps. Once you take into account how many jumps are required to do so, that "measly" 1400 credits per every half of the round trip between a rich industrial world and a poor agricultural world suddenly doesn't seem so small.

The profitability of PA<->RI milk runs is usually based on a Cobra 3's 35 TC (with LCB) capacity. But with a starting ship like a Cobra 1 or Moray, profit goes WAY down and difficulty goes up. Consider also the Adder and fighter-like ships that have small cargo capacities. Likewise, a Python may carry much more than a Cobra 3...but since a Python cannot fill up entirely on the most profitable commodities (since nowhere near enough are for sale), it's not much more profitable but it is more vulnerable if it runs into trouble. Even with just slightly more variability for how much is for sale, milk run round-trip profitability goes down immensely. As-is, Furs are terrible due to their huge price variations and often tiny numbers for sale.