Oolite Bulletins

mossfoot wrote:

Just a thought experiment here - the way the X-Beyond the Frontier series worked, things weren't just based on supply and demand but also consumption. So it took into account stuff being delivered to various planets (with prices dropping when they had too much supply) but also being either used up or bought and taken somewhere else for other reasons.

Does Oolite use a simplified idea of that at all, or would it even be possible?

Oolite doesn't do this, no. I don't know if it would be possible: it would mean modelling, or at least abstracting, the sales and purchases of all the NPCs ... plus, given that any OXP can add any sort of station to a system, it could be very easy to throw several tons of spanners into the workings of a local economy if it was running this kind of real-time model.

Partly, too, it's a question of scale. In the unmodified game, there are only two kinds of trading stations: Rock Hermits, and main system stations. Hermits are self-contained, and presumably have a low internal population and a low turnover of goods: one ship delivering 10TC of booze might well slake their thirst for a couple of weeks, reducing demand and therefore reducing the price - although, if they get very little passing traffic, then perhaps not: those 10TC might have to see them good for the next year, who knows? And main system stations are not self-contained: they're entry-ports for the planet. It's unlikely that even an Anaconda-load of booze would be significant enough to affect the price on a planetary scale.

I'm sure it would be only a project of interest to a true code monkey, especially if they wanted to take into account all the other stations that could appear in OXPs I suspect a simpler way to do it, though, would be through very general approximations based on tech level, production type, and government type, and simply have the ramifications felt as a plus/minus modifier to prices at every station for each product type (for a given value of simpler )

But it was something I liked about the X-series of games. If a factory was taken out, it had ramifications on the immediate universe in terms of supply and demand.

spara wrote:

Maybe I should reveal my cards too . I removed ConStores way back mainly because of the markets. I just could not be without exploiting them.

Disembodied wrote:

The refuelling aspect is definitely worth thinking about. To me, the ability to refuel at (or near) the WP is a much greater game-bender than the ability to get good prices on a few things. It allows players to undertake multi-jump routes without having to fly down the lane, or go sunskimming, and it allows players to use their injectors even after long jumps. Thinking about this some more, I think it's worth removing the ability to refuel at Constores completely.

I removed YAH+ConStores because of the clutter they caused. Ramming their replacement witchspace buoy a few times after exiting witchspace had a bit to do with that. (Note: That was back around Oolite v1.72-1.75 when exiting witchspace could rarely put you on a path for the buoy.) The same buoy could also mass-lock hyperspace jumping from a far greater distance than the buoy it replaced. That was annoying...but the station itself could also be close enough to make that worse.

I don't find the ability to refuel at ConStores to be terribly imbalancing because anyone who is attempting to do quick runs could already go off-lane and torus to the main station rather quickly. Only Deep Space Pirates OXP tended to discourage this, but even it has a safe zone near the space lane but still sufficiently far away to avoid normal pirates and regular traffic. If the price for fuel there is >3x that of the main station, I'm extremely unlikely to refuel there were I even to have it installed. Were ConStores not so close to the witchpoint, the game balance issue with refueling from them would be much less.

ConStores tend to only be in higher population+rich systems -- and those tend to be safer ones on average anyway, so the pressing need for having extra fuel for injecting is much lower than docking at a handy Space Bar at an Anarchy.

Disembodied wrote:

spud42 wrote:

might be a derpy question but. i have YAH installed but have never used the constores. will it still affect the markets?

No - Constores don't affect prices elsewhere. All station prices in the game are self-contained: they don't influence each other.

There is a slight correlation between station prices, if they use identical commodities.plist values. If they differ, sadly one can be at its max while the other is at its minimum...creating too much profit potential. In-system traffic alone should be sufficient to reduce that to a minimum, but it would be troublesome (for me, but please someone else give it a go) to make an OXP/OXZ to adjust station prices to be more inline with each other.

I replaced the ConStore's commodity market pretty early because I didn't want to be tempted by the ludicrous profits from what I perceived to be silly price differences. As such, the tiny availability of items and the marginal price differences I left it with meant it almost "wasn't worth my time" to visit there except on a whim. I tended to do cargo contracts (this was before I modified them!), asteroid mining (using Ore Extractor, Rock Hermit Locator, and Deep Space Pirates plus Asteroid Storm for variety), or salvaging ships (Dredgers, modified in numerous ways...less profitable for the big ships, somewhat profitable on small ships, but with a 3k credit missile cost). Most everything I did could have payouts in the 1000's of credits and I used a fully outfitted Boa 2.

I like more secondary station types in my Oolite universe, but adding the various station OXPs or rather OXPs that also include stations...tends to jumble up things. You can end up with >4 different stations near the main station in high tech/rich industrial systems and few anywhere else. To me, having a Superhub and Hoopy Casino near the main station is already pushing it. Variety would be better with ~1 secondary station in some systems semi-near the station and possibly 0-3 distant stations elsewhere in the system for other reasons.
I modified the spawning conditions of OXP stations in my game so that most types were exclusive...a system would pick only 1 secondary station near the main station. The list I used was Superhub, Sothis, Nuit, Globe (both types), Tori, and Transhab. Tori was annoying because its mass-lock was even greater than Superhub's and it was harder/slower to dock with. Transhab and Nuit didn't fit the Elite geometry shapes/styles as well either, but I added them for variety. Even still, lower tech/lower gov. type systems didn't get one. I even replaced the main station with a rock hermit model in very low tech (TL=1-3) systems with a considerably reduced commodity market...less for sale.

Hoopy Casinos had a limited commodity market that wasn't highly profitable (especially after I changed it) and was rare enough that they didn't bother me game-balance wise. It's when stations have big price differences from the main station and/or lots of cargo for sale (such as 20+ TC of furs or computer) that they become large profit makers.

The more I ponder about the fruit machine idea presented earlier, the more I like it. How about this?

* No shipyard. The stations sole purpose is buying and selling short, not being a gas station.
* Fast market that randomly changes solo items when not docked and the whole market when you dock at somewhere else, so it's a one shot deal when you dock at a constore. I would even use the original commodities.plist, as crazy as they are. And it has to be removed from Market Inquirer, so that it's a real wheel of fortune.

After pondering this more, I don't think that any sort of dynamic markets could work in this game. There are just too many variables to consider to not make it exploitable. So let's keep it a game feature that the markets don't change while you're in system.

That said I have a proposition here. I can make an update to the oxp, but as it is one of the big ones, I'll put out my thoughts here before I'll start working with it:

1. Fix spawning to use the populator so that you can save at the station and it's consistently of the same brand in particular system.
2. Update defenders to ZGroovy defenders.
3. Fix the market. The broken and overflowing market is somewhat an essential element of this oxp. It's like a giant wheel of fortune, which can be exploited. So I propose that instead of tweaking the prices, to script it so that for cheap commodities, there are only a very limited number of TCs to be bought. 0-15 TCs perhaps? And for those ridiculously overpriced ones, script it so that the market is almost full, so that it effectively limits the amount you can sell. 115-127 TCs perhaps. That should prevent a total in-system exploit, but you should be able to cash a bit.
4. Remove the shipyard. If you want to fuel up at the WP, install Fuel Stations oxp.

As a side-note, Keeper's YAH_Haulers should be put into the expansion manager.

spara wrote:

After pondering this more, I don't think that any sort of dynamic markets could work in this game. There are just too many variables to consider to not make it exploitable. So let's keep it a game feature that the markets don't change while you're in system.

That said I have a proposition here. I can make an update to the oxp, but as it is one of the big ones, I'll put out my thoughts here before I'll start working with it:

1. Fix spawning to use the populator so that you can save at the station and it's consistently of the same brand in particular system.
2. Update defenders to ZGroovy defenders.
3. Fix the market. The broken and overflowing market is somewhat an essential element of this oxp. It's like a giant wheel of fortune, which can be exploited. So I propose that instead of tweaking the prices, to script it so that for cheap commodities, there are only a very limited number of TCs to be bought. 0-15 TCs perhaps? And for those ridiculously overpriced ones, script it so that the market is almost full, so that it effectively limits the amount you can sell. 115-127 TCs perhaps. That should prevent a total in-system exploit, but you should be able to cash a bit.
4. Remove the shipyard. If you want to fuel up at the WP, install Fuel Stations oxp.

As a side-note, Keeper's YAH_Haulers should be put into the expansion manager.

Perhaps you can make it so the features available at the station are alterable in the OXP manager? So Shipyard is off by default, but can be switched on? Personally I do see it as a gas station situation, just like how gas stations have convenience stores. I know I could add the refueling station as you mentioned, I just like options being kept open

Also, I imagine they'd have some basic supplies there for restocking ships, so normal missiles would be available (as if those are useful). Maybe they'd be considered Tech 2 across the board equipment wise? Add a beer-cooler style "car wash" option that doesn't actually do anything, but might play some car wash music while you shop?

Heh, it would be neat if you could also have the actual shipyard part active selling ships, but ONLY the store-based sidewinders with logos - at a discount due to free advertising

Would definitely like to see the same brand each time I'm in a particular system... helps with the immersion.

No problem with the lower number of goods idea. Nice workaround by having it close to overstocked... though it certainly flies in the face of supply and demand (though you could argue the overpriced stuff just isn't selling while the cheap stuff is almost sold out )

mossfoot wrote:

Perhaps you can make it so the features available at the station are alterable in the OXP manager?

By which, presumably, you mean OXPConfig?

Thanks for the comments. Much appreciated.

mossfoot wrote:

So Shipyard is off by default, but can be switched on? Personally I do see it as a gas station situation, just like how gas stations have convenience stores. I know I could add the refueling station as you mentioned, I just like options being kept open

Can't be scripted as the property is read only, but the option should be achievable with an additional overriding oxp. I'll ponder it a bit.

mossfoot wrote:

Heh, it would be neat if you could also have the actual shipyard part active selling ships, but ONLY the store-based sidewinders with logos - at a discount due to free advertising

That should be possible too. Would make a fun flavour even if nobody would bought them.

mossfoot wrote:

No problem with the lower number of goods idea. Nice workaround by having it close to overstocked... though it certainly flies in the face of supply and demand (though you could argue the overpriced stuff just isn't selling while the cheap stuff is almost sold out )

Maybe there's someone in a grave need of food and is willing to pay 103 credits for TC. And maybe those dirt cheap Alien Artefacts are just leftovers from a spring clean at a Rock Hermit.

Diziet Sma wrote:

mossfoot wrote:

Perhaps you can make it so the features available at the station are alterable in the OXP manager?

By which, presumably, you mean OXPConfig?

erm.. yes

My haulers will have to be re-done for 1.80. They previously depended on Griff Resources. So, currently they don't actually work. You may get an unpainted hauler, but no escorts (and thus no constore defenders at all since the hauler OXP used overrides for all the store defenders if I remember right)! I have to re-do it when I have a moment.

Keeper wrote:

My haulers will have to be re-done for 1.80. They previously depended on Griff Resources. So, currently they don't actually work. You may get an unpainted hauler, but no escorts (and thus no constore defenders at all since the hauler OXP used overrides for all the store defenders if I remember right)! I have to re-do it when I have a moment.

That's sort of good news. You might want to wait with them until I'm done with the main oxp as I'm planning on including Z-GrOovY YAH defenders.

Populator is now working and market limiter is in place. Limiter oversees the quantities so that the maximum profit from a single commodity when trading with the main station does not exceed 1000 credits. So the rare chance of crazy food price is still there, but the possible profit has been cut down by filling the market.

Busy today with other things, so I'll be back to this tomorrow earliest.

I have now upgraded/fixed the main oxp and the first ad-pack. Changes include:

* saving at stations enabled.
* allegiance set to "chaotic". All money is good money!
* shipyard blocked, possible to enable via script.
* market "fixed" by altering quantities to cap profits. Max profit per commodity when trading with the main station is capped to 1000 credits.
* Dertien's YAH re-textured Griff's sidewinder included as station defender.
* Bgs-tunnel effect enabled.
* Massive re-organization/cleaning of shipdata. Everything possible moved to the shipdata in the main oxp and only ad-related ones are left to the ad-pack.

Market limiter in action. Crazy prices, but limitedly exploitable:


No more refueling at the station:


The rest of the ad-packs will take some time. Until that, here's a test version for those interested. Feedback much appreciated and if someone comes up with a better shipyard blocker screen I'll be happy to alter it. Both image and the text.

If you test this, make sure you don't have YAH or any YAH ad pack installed. And maker sure you don't have Z-Groovy YAH sidewinder pack either. And Keeper's YAH Haulers will also clash.

Download: YAH + Ad pack A (4.2 test1): https://app.box.com/s/5nffncb2vdrn0sd9s1dd

spara wrote:

No more refueling at the station:

If you just want to block refueling (and most other equipment too), then give the station "equivalent_tech_level" = 0; which gets rid of almost everything, then add "oolite-barred-equipment" = ("EQ_FUEL"); to its script_info dictionary to get rid of fuel as well.

I was wondering why Spara didn't just do that.. but I must admit, I like his sign and message, too..