Oolite Bulletins

Gimi wrote:

I think Drew was calling for more than one person to inform Amazon, just to give it more weight.

Yes, my suggestion was that a series of people post, thus ensuring Amazon set the 'price' to zero, effectively immediately.

Cmdr James wrote:

To be fair, CommonSenseOTB did have a strong objection, and I don't think that should be discarded out of hand, he has a point and deserves to be listened to.

Quite agree. Though hopefully I've made it clear that there would be no 'selling' in this case, no money involved and thus, hopefully, no sustained objection.

Status Quo, Mutabilis and Incursio are already available (for free) on sites that sell other wares (mostly books of course, but in the case of iTunes, videos, music and books). That has been the way for well over a year and no adversity has befallen us. I don't know how many people visit the forum or play the game as a result of reading the stories. There might be some, but it won't be a huge number.

I've moved away from distributing physical copies of my Oolite stories because a: There wasn't the demand b: the formating is a huge faff and c: Even at 'cost' (no profit to me) there was money moving between the buyer and the producer - cafepress at the time. I decided I wasn't happy with that on behalf of the community.

Ebook are different though. No cost, no money, just downloads.

What is the chance of David Braben or anyone else taking punitive action on seeing a commonly available free ebook appear for free on Amazon promoting a free game he is almost certainly already aware of? Negligible in my view.

I consider the 'risk' of anything occuring because we offer something for free on yet another online market to be minimal to nonexistant. I would have thought selling Elite ship shaped models (and I've bought one btw!) would be far more noteworthy and that seems completely permissable.

In six years of Status Quo being online I've had no contact whatsoever with anyone 'officially' associated with Elite so I would be surprised if David Braben or Ian Bell either care or are even aware of these stories.

The vast majority of my readers nowadays seem to be generic sci-fi/space opera fans rather than Elite/Oolite players. Thus, I think it's a bit of an irrelevance to be honest!

Cheers,

Drew.

drew wrote:

What is the chance of David Braben or anyone else taking punitive action on seeing a commonly available free ebook appear for free on Amazon promoting a free game he is almost certainly already aware of? Negligible in my view.

Completely agree.

drew wrote:

Cmdr James wrote:

To be fair, CommonSenseOTB did have a strong objection, and I don't think that should be discarded out of hand, he has a point and deserves to be listened to.

Quite agree. Though hopefully I've made it clear that there would be no 'selling' in this case, no money involved and thus, hopefully, no sustained objection.

And he made it quite clear that he objects to 'selling' even at zero price. He even goes so far as to say that he doesnt want it available on sites that sell things. His objection clearly stands.

drew wrote:

What is the chance of David Braben or anyone else taking punitive action on seeing a commonly available free ebook appear for free on Amazon promoting a free game he is almost certainly already aware of? Negligible in my view.

But that isnt the question you asked.

drew wrote:

Any objections from anyone? The books are all over the place/internet anyway, so a little bit of a moot point, but I'd prefer to have community backing.

There are already oolite things for sale, including your books. But you asked the question and, Im simply reminding the thread that amongst all the "yes sure" there is at least one voice saying hold on, Id prefer it if you didnt. And I dont really see anyone addressing his argument, everyone is just saying, "no, you dont understand, its FREE!!!" even though he clearly understood this when he posted.

Personally I paid for the hard copy, and would have done so even if they were for profit.

Cmdr James wrote:

drew wrote:

What is the chance of David Braben or anyone else taking punitive action on seeing a commonly available free ebook appear for free on Amazon promoting a free game he is almost certainly already aware of? Negligible in my view.

But that isnt the question you asked.

But it is one point that CommonSenseOTB raised that Drew answered to (emphasis mine):

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

My main concern is that this project is shut down over selling stuff and don't think that couldn't happen even over something as trivial as its' fiction.

My interpretation of CommonSenseOTB's post is that he objects to offering the Oolite Saga through Amazon because he wants to avoid Oolite being shut down, not because he is in principle against offering anything through Amazon. But it would be great if could clarify that himself.

Cmdr James wrote:

There are already oolite things for sale, including your books.

No. My books are *not* for sale and I object strongly to the claim that they are.

Selling is offering to exchange something of value for something else. When the price is zero nothing is exchanged, thus this not selling. I demand nothing whatsoever from readers of my stories. My Oolite stories have never and will never be sold (slightly vague interpretation regarding 'at cost' paperbacks sustained - they are no longer available anyway, so moot.)

My point? You cannot object to "selling" something at zero price. It is a non sequitor, so I don't see that objection being sustainable.

CSOTB clearly said he doesnt want <my stories> available on sites that sell things. This objection clearly stands and is valid.

I understand and appreciate this. My point is this is already the case, the stories have been available on sites that do indeed sell 'things' for over a year (iTunes most notably) so the objection is noted, but the potential downsides are only theoritical at this point and exceedingly unlikely to materialise, see my previous post.

Cheers,

Drew.

drew wrote:

No. My books are *not* for sale and I object strongly to the claim that they are.

OK I have checked cafepress and of course you are right, they are not currently, but I paid for hard copies of (the first 2?) them, so they were for sale at some point. My mistake in assuming they still were.

I seem to be arguing the case for someone who has long since lost interest in this thread, so its probably time for me to be quiet.

I dont mean to cause offense, especially as I dont care either way. Anyone who does care is welcome to argue their own case moving forward

Cmdr James wrote:

I seem to be arguing the case for someone who has long since lost interest in this thread, so its probably time for me to be quiet.

At the point where this became a viewtopic about water was where I tuned out.

You probably think I'm maybe a touch paranoid on that and what can posting free stuff on a commercial site harm if it's free and the license allows even some latitude to sell in some ways. I mean what possible line of thinking could I be on about with regards to this. Well, this is a bit of a leap but here is a possibility that I'm thinking about.

<very fictional scenario>
Imagine that it is another 8 years+ down the road and through the efforts of many people working as devs and oxp writers, many of those that are even currently here now, oolite is a hit. A smash. I mean I'm completely understating. Oolite has become THE game to play. It's free to use and yet is besting all the other works that software companies put out and it's galling them. In fact, many of them have come together to make a monetary offer to B&B just to shut it down. But he doesn't. Why? Because down the road he can use all the ideas and creations in a commercial release of the game. Oolite will become the free try it before you buy it site generating enough PR to get people hooked and looking for the super commercial version available from B&B with all the really fancy stuff. This is the best case scenario that could happen. Now let's backtrack a bit.

Let's assume for a moment that oolite gets popular but other companies that sell stuff and have free oolite stuff available realize the potential draw and make promotions linked with oolite to drum up business. Things start getting out of the control of people that use these sites for distribution of free oolite materials. The cross business connection turns into something that threatens to undermine the elite franchise and in order to preserve the future potential releases the whole project is shut down by Braben.

I have quite an imagination, eh?

<summary>
My thought is that a conflict of interest between Braben's vision for future elite versions and third party sellers offering free oolite stuff and wanting to milk it for all it's worth would cause oolite to be shut down. Not because any of us profit, but because a third party profits and as a result harms the elite franchise and forces braben to shut down oolite.

I know, I know, ridiculous, right?

Consider me the nagging little voice in the back of your mind. You decide, all of you, when it comes to this issue and go forth from the church of B&B and spread the gospel of Giles and his prophet Ahruman and of the great work which is oolite. I am but one man with an opinion and that's all it is.

<end of delusional ramblings>

Thanks CSOTB.

Nothings impossible of course...!

Cheers,

Drew.

I very much understand where you are coming from CSOTB. In fact,there have been several discussions regarding commercial enterprises around Oolite on the bb. These are something I strongly oppose to, pretty much with the same arguments you are making. No need to provide additional fuel for the rocket, if it should come to launch. However that was mainly with regards to the game itself. We are now talking about fan fiction, and in my view there is a difference, and I can't imagine B&B considering free fan fiction on Amazon as a threat to any commercial interests they have. As far as I know, neither of them publish books. So the only danger I see, is if this was the last drop that made them react in some way, and I just can't imagine that coming from fan fiction. However, until DB himself tells us otherwise, there is always the possibility, no matter how small.

Now if we try to look at Oolite and where it stands, keeping in mind that DB did shut down Elite TNK. From that I conclude, that DB will react against anything and anyone that makes a profit from something he considers his property, (fair enough by me). However, DB has stated the he intends to release Elite IV some time in the future (I'm not holding by breath by the way). He is taking his time though, and projects like Oolite and quite a few other (FFE3D, Pioneer, etc) is keeping the legacy of Elite alive, and in my view, this benefits DB and Frontier. So as long as Oolite remains a community driven, open source project, I think we are safe, and that DB actually benefits. Honestly, how many on this bb would not buy Elite IV when if it is released, regardless of any negative reviews (I know I will).

DB knows about Oolite, we know that he knows, and he knows that we know that he knows about it; pretending this isn't so is just burrowing our heads in the sand and suffer this "when is he going to pull the plug on us" anxiety forever.
Therefore, why not just write to him , explain to him our fears and misgivings and ask him to give us some guidelines (or, if we get really lucky, even a proper copyright license)?

It could be one of those "why didn't you just ask" cases, you know?

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

DB knows about Oolite, we know that he knows, and he knows that we know that he knows about it; pretending this isn't so is just burrowing our heads in the sand and suffer this "when is he going to pull the plug on us" anxiety forever.
Therefore, why not just write to him , explain to him our fears and misgivings and ask him to give us some guidelines (or, if we get really lucky, even a proper copyright license)?

It could be one of those "why didn't you just ask" cases, you know?

I hope you are right, and if you are, it would be good to have guidelines. Problem is, we are operating in a grey zone here. As long as we don't push it, he won't touch it. If we ask, he may well feel forced to act, setting much stricter guidelines than we want or close it down all together in the worst case. It may well be that he doesn't want to endorse or give guidelines so as to keep his options open if it does get out of hand.

So, if we do choose ask, give him the option to reply with "No Comment". Somebody with a better understanding of the "nicknack's" of the English language than me better write such a letter me thinks.

My two farthings worth.

Gimi wrote:

Problem is, we are operating in a grey zone here. As long as we don't push it, he won't touch it.

Even if we don't push it, he can still throw the book at us at any time he wishes to do so. And, do we even know where this grey area becomes black?

If we ask, he may well feel forced to act, setting much stricter guidelines than we want

Like, no selling stuff? That wouldn't really hurt us! What else can he do without going the whole way... maybe, take Oolite from us and sell it on retail? After all, Oolite did receive several awards...

or close it down all together in the worst case.

IIRC, he can already do that, or at the very least sic some lawyers on us...

It may well be that he doesn't want to endorse or give guidelines so as to keep his options open if it does get out of hand.
So, if we do choose ask, give him the option to reply with "No Comment".

I (tend to) agree(ish). But it'd really be nice to finally clarify our position.

When looking at grey areas as Gimi puts it, taking a conservative approach which doesn't push any legal boundaries to see if something breaks is probably the best solution to keep oolite around as long possible.

I don't think it's required to contact Mr. Braben to ask for guidelines. He probably looks at these forums once a month just to see what we're up to. As they say, as long as the boss says nothing you are probably doing a good job. That would allow us to accept that everything up to today has been acceptable. Doing more of the same should also be acceptable. Mr. Braben's plans are his own and not to be shared with us. I'm very happy that he has allowed us to get oolite to this point and if he blesses us with another 2 years or 20 years, either way I'm happy.

Elite TNK was shutdown because it was a reverse engine of the original code and then somebody else tried to make a profit out of it - and DB didn't "shut it down" - he asked his lawyer to ask Christian Pinder to withdraw it from distribution. Which Christian did. It didn't get to lawyers and courts - that's what most of these big developers (even relatively small ones like DB/Frontier) rely on.

And let's not forget Ian Bell is also fully aware of Oolite - he's even a member of this forum.

You won't get DB to comment - because he won't be tied to a statement that would later prevent further action if he felt it necessary.

I'd rather live in the shadow of a rumbling volcano than look at an eruption at a distance.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

(...)the best solution to keep oolite around as long possible. (...)if he blesses us with another 2 years or 20 years, either way I'm happy.

I was just suggesting that instead of wondering about tomorrow, we should insure it and reach an accommodation. I understand your fears of it backfiring, but as it is we've already reached a point similar to the events that led to the shutdown of Elite TNK - even though it's not reverse-engineered (er... except maybe for that truncated Fibonacci sequence), someone completely unrelated was selling it online and we couldn't take measures to stop it (besides posting a selling add indicating where to get it for free, and an ineffectual complaint).

He probably looks at these forums once a month just to see what we're up to

I hope so, and that he likes what he sees... do you realize he could even end up hiring some of the dev or OXPing teams, or asking Drew to write the Elite 4 novella?... Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but Mr. Braben isn't an ogre or the Queen of Hearts: he's not going to behead us for daring to address him without an official invitation.

Ian Bell is also fully aware of Oolite - he's even a member of this forum

I didn't know that... Hi there, Mr. Bell!

Mr. B and Mr. B, If you're reading this, thank you for your magnificent legacy.