Oolite Bulletins

All sounds pretty good to me.. one question though, regarding this:

cim wrote:

There's a list, starting with 16 entries, increasing in size to 32 at Competent and to 64 at Elite. Initial start for a new savegame: all entries filled with "player-unknown"

Will something similar be done for already established game-saves? Most of us would be rather upset at having to start a new Commander to take advantage of this new feature.

Diziet Sma wrote:

All sounds pretty good to me.. one question though, regarding this:

cim wrote:

There's a list, starting with 16 entries, increasing in size to 32 at Competent and to 64 at Elite. Initial start for a new savegame: all entries filled with "player-unknown"

Will something similar be done for already established game-saves? Most of us would be rather upset at having to start a new Commander to take advantage of this new feature.

"New savegame" as in "a savegame that is new to this feature" - apologies for the ambiguity. You'll get 16, 32 or 64 "player-unknown" entries as appropriate for your rating.

Diziet Sma wrote:

All sounds pretty good to me..

<nods>

Thanks for the clarification.

cim wrote:

trader: +1 for entering witchspace with only legal goods on board, if bought some legal goods in that system. Extra +1 if carrying >20TC or full hold (still requires buying in-system). +1 for accepting legal cargo contract, +1 for completing it

Is it worth giving a +1 for buying/selling goods at any non-main station? Otherwise a player could, theoretically, spend a lot of time trading within a system (between a main station and some rock hermits, perhaps) and not gain any reputation for it.

A similar issue might also apply to

cim wrote:

hunter: +1 for attacking an offender/fugitive ship not currently in combat (max twice per system)
pirate: +1 for attacking a pirate-victim-role ship (or escort) not currently in combat (max twice per system)
pirate-interceptor: +1 for attacking a hunter/police ship not currently in combat (max twice per system)
miner: +1 for destroying an asteroid with a mining laser (max twice per system)

They all assume that players will make frequent jumps to other systems - but it's possible that some players might hang around one place. That should increase their reputation, at least within that system. Maybe it would be better to make the maximums "twice per flight" - i.e. between dockings, rather than between systems?

A player would gain reputation more quickly, then, if they e.g. blew up a couple of pirates, docked with a rock hermit, then launched and flew on to the main station, destroying another couple of pirates on the way - but then, they're meeting more people, and the news of their exploits should spread faster ...

What sort of feedback will players get regarding their reputations? Will it all just be indirect, from NPC behaviour, or will there be e.g. comms messages ("Oh no! It's the well-known/famous/notorious/infamous bounty hunter/pirate/etc. [your name here]!")? Or will this be better left to OXPs?

Disembodied wrote:

Is it worth giving a +1 for buying/selling goods at any non-main station? Otherwise a player could, theoretically, spend a lot of time trading within a system (between a main station and some rock hermits, perhaps) and not gain any reputation for it.

In-system trading I count as mimicing the "shuttle" NPC role rather than the "trader" one. (1.79 shuttles will sometimes go between nearby stations, especially if planetary orbit has a few of them, rather than station->planet). Detecting in-system trading as separate from inter-system trading (or other roles) that happen to involve a few stops at different stations is tricky, though, so I don't yet have any way to get "shuttle" rep (and I'm not sure it's appropriate to give to a player in a witchspace-capable ship which clearly, whatever it is, isn't a shuttle)

Disembodied wrote:

They all assume that players will make frequent jumps to other systems - but it's possible that some players might hang around one place. That should increase their reputation, at least within that system.

True - and possibly very plausible behaviour for pirates. Between dockings would probably be sufficient, then.

Disembodied wrote:

What sort of feedback will players get regarding their reputations? Will it all just be indirect, from NPC behaviour

Yes, in the core game, at least for now. There are certainly plenty of things which OXPs could do with the data, though: an OXP (or several) for richer comms messages is something I hope to see for 1.79, and for example mission OXPs could make use of it to see how well the player is doing at staying undercover.

cim wrote:

Disembodied wrote:

They all assume that players will make frequent jumps to other systems - but it's possible that some players might hang around one place. That should increase their reputation, at least within that system.

True - and possibly very plausible behaviour for pirates. Between dockings would probably be sufficient, then.

I had a slight change of plan here. Basically, you only get credit within the same system at power-of-2 points, regardless of dockings. That should stop you getting ridiculously high rep, but means that a bounty hunting trip to an Anarchy system is likely to get you more recognised as being a bounty hunter than opportunistically shooting a couple of pirates as you go down a Communist spacelane would.

Anyway, all the player role assessment is in and seems to be working in isolation: now to fly around for a few weeks and see if it works out properly...

Next topic: contracts, couriers and assassins

One of the roles you can get is "trader-courier". This is not, on an NPC, a pirate victim role, because they aren't carrying recoverable cargo - it's all passenger cabins and parcels. So, if the player goes all out for that sort of courier duty, and doesn't do anything illegal, there's a good chance at the moment that (once they're "known" as a courier, anyway) no-one will attack them except the occasional thargoid.

So, what I'm thinking of for that is an "assassin" role. Ships generally from the faster and heavier end of the market, similar to the existing pirate-interceptor/pirate-aegis-raider classes, which hang around the witchpoint (preferring poorly-policed bottleneck systems, but potentially anywhere) until a courier appears, then start shooting at it (or hang around the aegis, hitchhike, then attack). The tougher ones might have a few escorts, too. OXP ones might even get Q-mines, but I'm not planning that for the core game...

That's easy enough to manage from an NPC perspective, but what about for the player? What I'm thinking of is extending the passenger/parcel contract system a bit - give each contract a danger level of "safe", "risky" or "very risky" (and a reported danger level and corresponding price increment which is usually, but not always, the same, and only exceptionally rarely would a "safe" contract turn out to be "very risky"). Then:
- carrying no or only safe contracts: the lightest class of assassin ship may attack anyway, if your role comes up as trader-courier, just on the off chance.
- carrying risky contracts: all assassins will attack if your role comes up as trader-courier
- carrying very risky contracts: assassins may attack anyway regardless of role, especially if you hang around them a while.

The attack would probably come with some sort of comms message - "You made a mistake helping [contract-giver-name], Commander!" - to make it clear it wasn't a normal pirate attack.

Does this seem like the right way to go about it in general, or is there a better way to keep the danger up for trader-couriers?

If you like the general idea, some further questions:
- should "reported-as-risky" contracts have a minimum reputation and/or Elite ranking before you can take them? If so, roughly what? Do we need to extend the reputation scale from -7/+7 to something bigger?
- should the riskier contracts give a bigger reputation increase? (We'd definitely have to extend the scale if so)
- what sort of price bonus would you expect for the riskier contracts?
- should there be some mechanism to surrender a contract? "I was told they were routine tax records. Have them and let me go!" (Just for parcels, or for passengers too?) Or should the player just have to fight off whatever shows up.
- should cargo contracts get the same sort of risk rating? (There's no strict need: taking cargo contracts gives use "trader" role, and the existing pirates will go for you anyway. On the other hand, it might be fun)
- should there be a way in the core game for the player to make money from hunting NPC couriers? If so, how might that work? Or does this get left for an OXP to fill in the gap?
- if the player takes on "very risky" contracts, should we add some tough assassin packs specifically for them over and above the normal populator levels?
- I'd like some hints that a contract might not be as risky as the person is claiming (in either direction): any ideas for these?

cim wrote:

One of the roles you can get is "trader-courier". This is not, on an NPC, a pirate victim role, because they aren't carrying recoverable cargo - it's all passenger cabins and parcels.

Quick question here: it stands to reason that the parcels will be valuable for their recipients, so a pirate might capture them for a ransom. Or—if the parcel is something politically important—another faction may want to intercept it, and hire some privateers to do it (think of the second built-in mission as an example of this type of danger). Similarly, a pirate gang may be after passengers for ransom money.

Thus, it doesn't seem so evident to me that a trader-courier would be safe from pirates.

Commander McLane wrote:

cim wrote:

One of the roles you can get is "trader-courier". This is not, on an NPC, a pirate victim role, because they aren't carrying recoverable cargo - it's all passenger cabins and parcels.

Quick question here: it stands to reason that the parcels will be valuable for their recipients, so a pirate might capture them for a ransom. Or—if the parcel is something politically important—another faction may want to intercept it, and hire some privateers to do it (think of the second built-in mission as an example of this type of danger). Similarly, a pirate gang may be after passengers for ransom money.

Thus, it doesn't seem so evident to me that a trader-courier would be safe from pirates.

True. There would definitely in that case need to be a mechanism for ships (including the player) to dump parcels (they seem unlikely to be reliably salvageable after ship destruction) and eject passengers. Crates of New Cargoes' "Budget Tourists" aside, there's no way to do that yet.

Privateer interception is the reason I'm considering having a separate NPC role for the assassins: the average pirate isn't really set up for chasing down a fast courier - they rarely have injectors, and they often don't even have witchdrives. For an opportunistic attack, though, yes, some of them should give it a go.

All this keeps sounding better and better..

cim wrote:

Next topic: contracts, couriers and assassins

One of the roles you can get is "trader-courier". This is not, on an NPC, a pirate victim role, because they aren't carrying recoverable cargo - it's all passenger cabins and parcels. So, if the player goes all out for that sort of courier duty, and doesn't do anything illegal, there's a good chance at the moment that (once they're "known" as a courier, anyway) no-one will attack them except the occasional thargoid.

For dedicated parcel couriers, I don't think this is a problem: it's very unlikely that a player will make regular trips with an empty cargo hold, just carrying packages. If they do, good luck to them, I say! Although it's also possible that making regular runs with an empty cargo hold might create the suspicion that the player is either a bounty hunter or a smuggler ... maybe if the player routinely launches with >80% cargo capacity unfilled, people start to assume that something else must be going on? But if a player wants to be a dedicated courier, takes low-value items, and flies a ship with no hold, then fair enough - the only things they'll have to worry about Thargoids. And there might still be loner pirates – the dim, the desperate, the uninformed - who might attack anyway, not knowing the player's reputation.

cim wrote:

What I'm thinking of is extending the passenger/parcel contract system a bit - give each contract a danger level of "safe", "risky" or "very risky" (and a reported danger level and corresponding price increment which is usually, but not always, the same, and only exceptionally rarely would a "safe" contract turn out to be "very risky").

I'm not sure if it's necessary to actively report on the riskiness of a passenger or parcel contract ... maybe the player should have to judge that from the fee being offered (and the likely route/destination)? If the run is moderately short, and moderately safe system-wise, but the fee is very large, then it could be left up to the player to think "Why so much money for an apparently routine parcel/passenger contract?" It would also avoid the issue of having the game "lie" to the player, which might be interpreted as buggy behaviour.

There could perhaps be a few other cues - if the passenger was described as "... a shifty, green slimy frog", or "... a nervous, green slimy frog", or "... a twitchy, green slimy frog", then the player might also start to put two and two together. Of course, it might also be risky transporting "... an impassive, green slimy frog" who was offering an unusually large sum of money - and some completely innocent passengers might be nervous about space travel anyway ... But a descriptive scale could run something like

placid
calm
relaxed
impassive
nervous
shifty
twitchy
perspiring

Further clues could be given as to the relationship between price and riskiness if the passengers/parcel contractees could turn down novice players (or players with insufficiently high reputations): "I'm sorry, I'm looking for a pilot with a larger skill-set", etc. Of course, some really desperate individuals might be prepared to jump aboard with the first pilot dumb enough to take them ...

cim wrote:

- should there be some mechanism to surrender a contract? "I was told they were routine tax records. Have them and let me go!" (Just for parcels, or for passengers too?) Or should the player just have to fight off whatever shows up.

I think it would be easier to keep the proposed Assassin ships aimed at actually killing the passenger/destroying the parcels, rather than capturing them.

Man, this is so much better than Frontier's Design Decision Forum... Keep up the great discussion, guys.

cim wrote:

What I'm thinking of is extending the passenger/parcel contract system a bit - give each contract a danger level of "safe", "risky" or "very risky" (and a reported danger level and corresponding price increment which is usually, but not always, the same, and only exceptionally rarely would a "safe" contract turn out to be "very risky").

I'm liking this idea - I never do contract cargo or passenger runs, but I do carry parcels occasionly. Could parcel contracts be extended to rock hermits?
This is possibly where I'd expect to find some very dodgy parcels waiting for delivery.

Disembodied wrote:

For dedicated parcel couriers, I don't think this is a problem: it's very unlikely that a player will make regular trips with an empty cargo hold, just carrying packages.

They might not have to. The most profitable trips are the cross-chart runs, so except for Elite pilots, and to some degree even for them, they're going to have some quite serious erosion of their role assessments because they're continually entering new systems - except for trader-courier, which doesn't get lost on witchspace jumps. Even doing a bit of something else on the way, the trader-courier reputation is likely to dominate.

More so for passenger couriers who have no (or little) hold for general trading/salvage purposes, of course, or someone who's decided to outfit an Asp as a parcel courier.

Disembodied wrote:

Of course, some really desperate individuals might be prepared to jump aboard with the first pilot dumb enough to take them ...

Indeed. Just keeping to indirect signalling for the most part I think is fine. Perhaps if rather than a risk level, the contracts had a "minimum Elite ranking" publicised. The player would have to decide based on other factors if the ranking was just the client being prudent about general piracy, or if there was a definite threat they were worried about.

I do want some sort of fairly explicit in-game hint that some of the contracts may involve substantial risk just so that players upgrading from 1.78 get a notice that things have changed before they accept a large contract and get attacked by every assassin pack between Lave and Tianve. (New players I'm not so worried about because they don't know that there aren't assassins)

Cody wrote:

Could parcel contracts be extended to rock hermits?

As a source for contracts (and passengers as well; why not), yes, possibly.

Making them a destination is much more difficult since it's not straightforward to determine from outside a system whether it has rock hermits (they should normally, but OXPs can override the usual populator and could in theory do this while the player was in flight)

cim wrote:

...but OXPs can override the usual populator...

Those pesky OXPs! Tut-tut.