Oolite Bulletins

ClymAngus wrote:

So why bother? Why not use excel?

I never said use excel. Your reasons for not doing that are exactly why I wouldn't do that either. What I was referring to was a spreadsheet (like mine) to get the data in XML form but getting it straight off the web-page instead is probably just as good. Then use XSLT the XML transformation language to convert the data to a SVG vector graphics document which is similar to what you are doing but a bit more automated. Also a For loop in the XSLT should be able do the routes between worlds.

Phantor Gorth

ClymAngus wrote:

So why bother? Why not use excel?

PhantorGorth wrote:

I never said use excel.

Well I never said that you said that I should use excel. En garde!

My perceived attack was in fact a rhetorical feint, yet you defended against it anyway. Reposte! Ah ha!

Right, putting the Épée's away, back to the Geek speak.

PhantorGorth wrote:

Your reasons for not doing that are exactly why I wouldn't do that either. What I was referring to was a spreadsheet (like mine) to get the data in XML form but getting it straight off the web-page instead is probably just as good. Then use XSLT the XML transformation language to convert the data to a SVG vector graphics document which is similar to what you are doing but a bit more automated. Also a For loop in the XSLT should be able do the routes between worlds.

Phantor Gorth

Yeah you see illustrator almost did that. It tried to connect all the dots to all the other dots. Which although quite pretty was fairly impractical. I fully admit that there are probably several more efficient ways of doing it. I was personally quite stoked I managed to automate the xml formatting using arcane tools like awk and sed.

But as you said, (Not in so many words but I got the gist) it's always a toss up between a learning curve that could make things quicker in the end and actually getting the job done.

As a deep programmer friend of mine once said. There's little point learning 10 different ways to tie your shoe lace if it's still untied at the end.

<thread derailing>

ClymAngus wrote:

ClymAngus wrote:

So why bother? Why not use excel?

PhantorGorth wrote:

I never said use excel.

Well I never said that you said that I should use excel.

</thread derailing>

ClymAngus wrote:

Well I never said that you said that I should use excel.

Sorry, I just got the impression you thought I did. I didn't even perceive it as an attack, just a misunderstanding, so it was hardly a defense just an attempted correction.

I was personally quite stoked I managed to automate the xml formatting using arcane tools like awk and sed.

I use them regularly at work (win32 versions which adds the vagaries of DOS shell behaviour to the mix). Awk is easier to get your head round for most things but sed can be very arcane/cryptic.

I have only ever written one XSLT document and that was to convert Evolution's mail message filter, which are stored in an XML file, into a HTML table. It was frustrating at first but I was soon able to pick it up; particular as I was using Quanta Plus application for its XSLT debugger.

I might have a go at trying to do the maps using XSLT if you don't mind me re-using your map style. (This is mainly as an exercise to brush up my XSLT skills and to learn SVG.)

Phantor Gorth

PhantorGorth wrote:

ClymAngus wrote:

Well I never said that you said that I should use excel.

Sorry, I just got the impression you thought I did. I didn't even perceive it as an attack, just a misunderstanding, so it was hardly a defense just an attempted correction.

Which is why we immediately turn the entire thing into a comedy double act. Much like washing up liquid on a pool full of pond skaters it really, breaks the tension.

It's impossible to retain a straight face when confronted by the brain burning mental image of PhantorGorth & ClymAngus in tights and floopy shirts dancing round each other with ludicrously long pointy swords. It's just not possible! Science has proven it!

ClymAngus wrote:

I was personally quite stoked I managed to automate the xml formatting using arcane tools like awk and sed.

PhantorGorth wrote:

I use them regularly at work (win32 versions which adds the vagaries of DOS shell behaviour to the mix). Awk is easier to get your head round for most things but sed can be very arcane/cryptic.

I have crib sheets for sed, it is incredibly concise however (If you can ever get the damn things to work). To be honest I must bite the bullet and get into perl. Times they are a changing.

PhantorGorth wrote:

I have only ever written one XSLT document and that was to convert Evolution's mail message filter, which are stored in an XML file, into a HTML table. It was frustrating at first but I was soon able to pick it up; particular as I was using Quanta Plus application for its XSLT debugger.

I might have a go at trying to do the maps using XSLT if you don't mind me re-using your map style. (This is mainly as an exercise to brush up my XSLT skills and to learn SVG.)

Feel free they're not 'my' maps in any true sense of the word. One thing you may want to watch out for are systems that are very close together. I found it useful having the option of moving things about a little. That said by just altering the xy you can generate the same effect.

And if you do get it working, start with chart 8 eh?

ClymAngus wrote:

It's impossible to retain a straight face when confronted by the brain burning mental image of PhantorGorth & ClymAngus in tights and floopy shirts dancing round each other with ludicrously long pointy swords.

How did you know what I tend to wear?

If you can ever get the damn things to work

Sounds familiar. Usually the issue of "does this version of sed support this or that feature and hence do you have to escape that character or not?" or "do you have to escape that character on the pattern part of a substitution command or in the replacement part or both?"

To be honest I must bite the bullet and get into perl. Times they are a changing.

"Perl" - Bh-h-h-h (Shudder!)

Feel free they're not 'my' maps in any true sense of the word.

I was more thinking of the graphics used for the worlds such as the government type icons, etc. I believe they are your invention are they not?

Phantor Gorth

PhantorGorth wrote:

How did you know what I tend to wear?

The "orth" kind of gave it away. We must go out for a beer some time, don't worry, I'm married, your safe. Relatively.

If you can ever get the damn things to work

Sounds familiar. Usually the issue of "does this version of sed support this or that feature and hence do you have to escape that character or not?" or "do you have to escape that character on the pattern part of a substitution command or in the replacement part or both?"

Hmm escape characters, unfortunately most of the things I would escape with are in the directory structure (but then this is what you get when you network meld linux, mac and windows). I tend to get pissed off with the prefix "-" they promise so much and deliver so little (depending on your version of course). 9 times out of 10 I end up going back to awk or awk double or treble piped. Yes, it's messy and MANY people say you could like do that with 3 characters in perl, but then with the break neck speed of post production, learning another way of doing what I do appeals to me like gravel rash.

Computers are odd like that, the tools DEMAND attention. A hammer is a hammer, you hit things with it. You don't get a hammerV2 that requires you to relearn HOW to hit things in a whole new way. In darker moments I swear those who can think in hex and basic just make these things in order to keep themselves on the gravy train.

To be honest I must bite the bullet and get into perl. Times they are a changing.

"Perl" - Bh-h-h-h (Shudder!)

Yeah, I hear ya.

Feel free they're not 'my' maps in any true sense of the word.

I was more thinking of the graphics used for the worlds such as the government type icons, etc. I believe they are your invention are they not?

Well I vectored them, I can let you have the templates for all of it if you like. I can just separate out the different politics, tech levels and industries of the template (they're all currently MOOshed together in an illustrator file) as layers. Might take a bit of time and I would need a preferred format.

It was my intention to make the files available at the end of the project anyway. (alterations come so thick and fast these days).

ClymAngus wrote:

We must go out for a beer some time, don't worry, I'm married, your safe. Relatively.

A drink sounds great but you are in London and I am in Edinburgh.

Well I vectored them, I can let you have the templates for all of it if you like. I can just separate out the different politics, tech levels and industries of the template (they're all currently MOOshed together in an illustrator file) as layers. Might take a bit of time and I would need a preferred format.

Ok, out of curiosity, if you only converted them to vectors what was the original source?

As for a format: Inkscape will read Adobe Illustrator 9 and above .ai files so send me the original. I should therefore be able to convert to SVG to get the component parts out. If it doesn't work we can think of something else.

Phantor Gorth

PhantorGorth wrote:

A drink sounds great but you are in London and I am in Edinburgh.

Oooh, that's a long straw.

PhantorGorth wrote:

Ok, out of curiosity, if you only converted them to vectors what was the original source?

Tif screen grabs from the game. Then traced in illustrator. If I got stuck with something really crappy (dictator) I took a copy of the oolite ref sheet as the lines are cleaner. I did a little bit of free hand work too (feudal) and altered things to fit the circle.

PhantorGorth wrote:

As for a format: Inkscape will read Adobe Illustrator 9 and above .ai files so send me the original. I should therefore be able to convert to SVG to get the component parts out. If it doesn't work we can think of something else.

Sweet I can down format it to 9 from 10 and that way I can keep it as one file with lots of layers instead of messing around will dividing up each layer.

I'll get and e-mail the template from work today.

ClymAngus wrote:

Sweet I can down format it to 9 from 10 ...

No need to even do that. According to the software it was 9 and above (though that is a presumptive of the Inkscape people to know they can import files from versions of illustrator that don't exist yet) so 10 will probably be fine.

Phantor Gorth

ClymAngus wrote:

In darker moments I swear those who can think in hex and basic just make these things in order to keep themselves on the gravy train.

There are people who think in Basic? <shudders> However, I must confess that in my assembler coding days, I sometimes dreamed in hex...

PhantorGorth wrote:

Ok, out of curiosity, if you only converted them to vectors what was the original source?

I think, (but am probably wrong) that the original source of the Govt. types icons was in KZ9999's Oolite Reference Sheet.. There's a copy in your Oolite folder.

I would say from what I'm seeing of G5 so far it's a bloody mess. Corporates surrounded by anarchies, feudal systems controlling gateway systems.

I'm holding out a lot of hope for PhantorGorth's refugee hypothesis as a way of explaining the bare ass lunacy I'm seeing here.

Diziet Sma wrote:

PhantorGorth wrote:

Ok, out of curiosity, if you only converted them to vectors what was the original source?

I think, (but am probably wrong) that the original source of the Govt. types icons was in KZ9999's Oolite Reference Sheet.. There's a copy in your Oolite folder.

Sorry , but for the 1.72.2 version it's bitmaps because it was created on Open Office 3.0 which didn't handle the orginal PDF sources too well. While my source zip off my box.net site does have them in high'ish res pngs, you are better off getting them from the original pdf which is on the berilOS site.

As a side note, the OoliteRS for 1.73 will have all the icons in vectored format as I'm rebuilding it from the ground up in Scribus.

On the reason for the messy structure, as the species map had it, G5 was meant to be dominated by Amphibians. Of I've seen of the few species we have here in NZ, they were pretty solitary/individualistic by nature. When they do get together they are extremely competitive/argumentative which ties in with the nature of the map don't you think.

If you wanted I could always cc you a copy of the map template.

Another mess? Seriously, are all of the Galaxies beyond Two this bad?