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Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:58 am
by zx_cb
phkb wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 8:53 am
Well I’m still testing and fixing at the moment. If things go well I’ll post an update later in the week.
I`d be happy to help with any kind of intermediate playtesting if that`s viable at the moment, but also looking forward to a next stable release!
(edit):
I just noticed this in your version history for the Ship Configuration:
"1.3.6. Fixed issue where HUD was not being restored after viewing the Ship Configuration screen."
SInce you use the same base for F3 Station Upgrades interface in Hermitage, that should be an easy fix for it too :)
(another edit)
phkb wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 3:52 am
I'd like to, but I'm trying to maintain the *one thing* you MUST be able to do at your own Hermitage, which is to be able to save your game. In order to do that, the Rock Hermit has to be spawned in a certain way, and once spawned, some properties of the entity can't be changed without respawning it. And as soon as you respawn it, you can't save your game at the Rock Hermit until you leave the system and come back again. So, to work around that limitation, I put in some (rather tenuous) in-game logic for why you have to fly to a local system and come back. Not ideal, but the only way to solve the issue.
I was also pondering this, and though I understand the technical limitation, the solution tenuosity still outweights playability in my opinion - double that for a Hermitage as a new career start. Basically, it will prevent a player from progressing for considerable time and limit him to "shoot rocks scoop rocks" mundanity as he will need at least a TL3 upgrade and some confidence in getting it. Propose, not criticise they say, so:
if there`s no way to force-run the populator routine otherwise than loading a saved game, why not just ask the player to do exactly this by adding the text note to station upgrades that need it respawned? It may be not so much immersion-breaking as having to fly an Adder somewhere and back just for the sake of it. We still have trucker or train sims for those meditative mood types :) Just a thing to consider. Or - it could be made optional, like with an upgrade install time.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 4:30 pm
by phkb
zx_cb wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 8:58 am
if there`s no way to force-run the populator routine otherwise than loading a saved game, why not just ask the player to do exactly this by adding the text note to station upgrades that need it respawned?
I went back and had another look at the reasoning, and discovered the issue is more complicated when it comes to certain upgrades - Tech level changes, the equipment price factor, and whether the RH has a shipyard, can only be changed by changing the ship data key of the station. If you look at the shipdata.plist file in the OXP, you'll see I have a lot of variations of the basic hermitage ship key, one for each possible combination. In fact, even buying or hijacking a station requires a change in data key, from the original core data key, to a hermitage one.
Now, I can change the ship key of the station on respawn (eg on a save and reload). However, if you saved at your RH, and then change the ship key when you reload, you'll find yourself back at the main station, *not* at your RH. This is because your save game uses the ship data key to work out where you were when you saved, and if it changes, it can't locate the station and the only option left is to put you at the main station. Which is quite jarring!
So, to pursue a scenario where you ask the player to save and reload, would have to actually be, ask the player to *fly to the main station*, and then save and reload. And then, what if the player doesn't?
I really do want to make the process as seamless as possible, but I also want to avoid anything that "feels" like a bug (like reloading a saved game to find out you're not at your RH anymore). It's certainly easy enough to get the player to fly to the main station in the current system to complete the mission (it even makes more sense in game), it's just that next step that has my eye twitching. Am I being too pedantic? Would that be a preferable solution over one that forces you to leave the system in order to guarantee everything plays out nicely? What do others think?
(And apologies in advance if the above doesn't make sense - it's 2:30am at the moment, so getting thoughts into words isn't running as smoothly as normal!)
zx_cb wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 8:58 am
I`d be happy to help with any kind of intermediate playtesting if that`s viable at the moment
I might just take you up on that offer. Stay tuned!
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 4:33 pm
by phkb
zx_cb wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 8:58 am
SInce you use the same base for F3 Station Upgrades interface in Hermitage, that should be an easy fix for it too
Are you getting issues with the HUD on the upgrades page? Which HUD are you using? I'm changing the HUD on the F4 Management page, not the F3 page, although I'm hiding the HUD on the F3 page if the HUD doesn't support a large GUI.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 5:13 pm
by zx_cb
phkb wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 4:33 pm
Are you getting issues with the HUD on the upgrades page? Which HUD are you using? I'm changing the HUD on the F4 Management page, not the F3 page, although I'm hiding the HUD on the F3 page if the HUD doesn't support a large GUI.
So I just did a more thorough look into the matter. Haven`t put much attention to it at first, just noticing that HUD disappears sometimes and so no messages updating on station info are shown, but here`s what happens in detail.
On accessing F3 Station Upgrades OR F4 Rock Hermit Management and exiting, HUD fails to reappear. It comes back on entering F4 HUD and MFD Selector Menu, but right after entering it - no actual selection required. I use Extra Large HUD (with selector, apparently, and only have a Numeric installed apart from basic set. No clear corresponding log message noted, however, this sometimes show up:
[hudselector]: Scanner NonLinear:true UltraZoom:true HUD:hudselector-extralarge.plist Crosshairs: null, scanner settings is not fixed.
but not clearly related to GUI_SCREEN changes before or after it. I run 2560x1440 Fullscreen.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 5:32 pm
by zx_cb
phkb wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 4:30 pm
So, to pursue a scenario where you ask the player to save and reload, would have to actually be, ask the player to *fly to the main station*, and then save and reload. And then, what if the player doesn't?
I really do want to make the process as seamless as possible, but I also want to avoid anything that "feels" like a bug (like reloading a saved game to find out you're not at your RH anymore). It's certainly easy enough to get the player to fly to the main station in the current system to complete the mission (it even makes more sense in game), it's just that next step that has my eye twitching. Am I being too pedantic? Would that be a preferable solution over one that forces you to leave the system in order to guarantee everything plays out nicely? What do others think?
"If you can`t fight it - lead it" (c)
I`d say we don`t have to be ashamed of the core game engine limitations, especially when trying to push it to do something it wasn`t supposed to do initially. Save and reload at the main station seems very plausible and player-friendly (it is the GalCop headquarters, and the player will quickly get used to their home system, knowing the spacelanes, how to approach the station optimally with minimum risk and masslock even without the Telescope and\or injectors). Just be upfront about the process in the documentation - "upgraded rock hermit must be respawned with a new ship_key that requires to do this. be aware that it will throw you to the main station of you DISOBEY, meatbag!" And also an in-game message like "Commander, processing your papers will take some time, so have a drink or go sightseeing and get back to us [after reload]". From my personal casual player viewpoint, that - understanding what is happening and why - would be well enough to justify doing it.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:57 pm
by Cholmondely
zx_cb wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 5:32 pm
I`d say we don`t have to be ashamed of the core game engine limitations, especially when trying to push it to do something it wasn`t supposed to do initially. Save and reload at the main station seems very plausible and player-friendly (it is the GalCop headquarters, and the player will quickly get used to their home system, knowing the spacelanes, how to approach the station optimally with minimum risk and masslock even without the Telescope and\or injectors). Just be upfront about the process in the documentation - "upgraded rock hermit must be respawned with a new ship_key that requires to do this. be aware that it will throw you to the main station of you DISOBEY, meatbag!" And also an in-game message like "Commander, processing your papers will take some time, so have a drink or go sightseeing and get back to us [after reload]". From my personal casual player viewpoint, that - understanding what is happening and why - would be well enough to justify doing it.
Totally agree with this. Was about to suggest something very similar myself. Currently in Italy where processing papers can take forever (one week to get the gas for the hot water/ch reconnected in Venice - I hope! And there's an elderly relative who's been locked out of her Venice bank account for over two years now).
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 1:00 am
by phkb
zx_cb wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 5:32 pm
Save and reload at the main station seems very plausible and player-friendly
OK, so I've switched to having the local system main station as the save/load point. There will still be need to go out of the system to find blueprints and specialised components, and I think that's a good thing as it adds to the tension of leaving your home behind, unprotected, while you travel, plus it gives real weight to the decision to pursue a particular upgrade, and a real sense of achievement when you finally get it. But you now won't be forced to do it. We'll see how it plays out.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 5:26 am
by phkb
I've got some preliminary costs for the equipment components and blueprints for discussion. System TL requirement is also listed. Have I got things too high/low/about right?
First, equipment items (not fully completed yet, based on Cholmondely's list on page...something or other...)
Code: Select all
Equipment name TL Price Required for
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Component: CorCom trading computers 1 220.0 ₢ Black Market
Component: HoloFac messaging systems 1 390.0 ₢ Black Market
Component: Power regulator 2 250.0 ₢ E.C.M. System
Component: Bioregenerative substrate synthesiser 3 340.0 ₢ Life Support (Type 3)
Component: Tension leg platforms 4 2490.0 ₢ Station Shipyard
Component: Tri-clamp sight glass 4 3780.0 ₢ Distillery (Type 1)
Component: Thermoelectric Cooling Manager 5 520.0 ₢ Life Support (Type 4)
Component: Wrogerian Repair Droid AI 5 2269.0 ₢ Auto-Repair Facility (Type 4)
Component: Self propelled modular transporters 5 5220.0 ₢ Station Shipyard
Component: Montanistic biospherical laboratory 5 6215.0 ₢ Narcotics Processing (Type 1)
Component: Astrodynamic transverse stabiliser 6 3645.0 ₢ Station Shipyard
Component: Kruger SRM79 splinter splicer 6 4520.0 ₢ Refinery (Type 4)
Component: ASME Low pressure safety valve 6 5169.0 ₢ Distillery (Type 2)
Component: Tri-Axial grid maps 7 315.0 ₢ Fast-Docking System
Component: AutoCom communicators 7 665.0 ₢ Fast-Docking System
Component: Arquebusian arms-automata 7 10 228.0 ₢ Weapons Manufacturing (Type 1)
Component: Presynaptic opioid hyperpolarizer 7 13 361.0 ₢ Narcotics Processing (Type 2)
Component: Water Coolant Loop System 8 1460.0 ₢ Life Support (Type 5)
Component: Silastoplaston fibres 8 2760.0 ₢ Station Shipyard, Auto-Repair Facility (Type 6), Structural Reinforcement (Type 5)
Component: Bain Marie alembic still 8 7821.0 ₢ Distillery (Type 3)
Component: Ruthian Boulder-basher 9 6845.0 ₢ Refinery (Type 5)
Component: Vibronic solid-state maser ablater 9 12 714.0 ₢ Weapons Manufacturing (Type 2)
Component: HiFlux chromon alloys 10 4368.0 ₢ Station Shipyard, Structural Reinforcement (Type 6)
Component: Mash tun 10 9367.0 ₢ Distillery (Type 4)
Component: Cyclo-oxygenasian alembic 10 17 422.0 ₢ Narcotics Processing (Type 3)
Component: Diluent gas eliminator 11 2815.0 ₢ Life Support (Type 6)
Component: Optical parametric oscillators 11 17 569.0 ₢ Weapons Manufacturing (Type 3)
Component: Pyrometallurgical plasma sinterer 12 16 723.0 ₢ Refinery (Type 6)
Next, blueprints. Blueprints can only be purchased at RH's, so the TL requirement is for the system, not the equivalent TL of the RH:
Code: Select all
Blueprint name TL Price
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blueprint: Security System (Fuel Reserve) 1/2 27.0 ₢
Blueprint: Security System (Hangar) 2/3 157.5 ₢
Blueprint: Security System (Storage) 3/4 157.5 ₢
Blueprint: Security System (Market) 2/3 157.5 ₢
Blueprint: Navigational Beacon 1/2 45.0 ₢
Blueprint: Energy Storage Unit (Type 1) 1/2 67.5 ₢
Blueprint: Energy Storage Unit (Type 2) 1/2 135.0 ₢
Blueprint: Energy Storage Unit (Type 3) 7/8 297.0 ₢
Blueprint: Energy Storage Unit (Type 4) 9/10 414.0 ₢
Blueprint: Energy Storage Unit (Type 5) 12/13 585.0 ₢
Blueprint: Structural Reinforcement (Type 1) 1/2 85.5 ₢
Blueprint: Structural Reinforcement (Type 2) 1/2 153.0 ₢
Blueprint: Structural Reinforcement (Type 3) 3/4 301.5 ₢
Blueprint: Structural Reinforcement (Type 4) 5/6 414.0 ₢
Blueprint: Structural Reinforcement (Type 5) 7/8 675.0 ₢
Blueprint: Structural Reinforcement (Type 6) 9/10 1314.0 ₢
Blueprint: Fast-Docking System 6/7 90.0 ₢
Blueprint: Life Support (Type 2) 1/2 99.0 ₢
Blueprint: Life Support (Type 3) 2/3 153.0 ₢
Blueprint: Life Support (Type 4) 4/5 256.5 ₢
Blueprint: Life Support (Type 5) 7/8 382.5 ₢
Blueprint: Life Support (Type 6) 10/11 540.0 ₢
Blueprint: Reactor (300 MW) 1/2 112.5 ₢
Blueprint: Reactor (500 MW) 2/3 292.5 ₢
Blueprint: Reactor (700 MW) 4/5 540.0 ₢
Blueprint: Reactor (900 MW) 5/6 1143.0 ₢
Blueprint: Reactor (1200 MW) 6/7 1953.0 ₢
Blueprint: Reactor (1500 MW) 8/9 4770.0 ₢
Blueprint: Fuel Reserve (60LY) 1 144.0 ₢
Blueprint: Fuel Reserve (80LY) 1 414.0 ₢
Blueprint: Fuel Reserve (100LY) 1 630.0 ₢
Blueprint: Fuel Reserve (120LY) 1 1066.5 ₢
Blueprint: Fuel Reserve (150LY) 1 1440.0 ₢
Blueprint: Black Market 1/2 168.8 ₢
Blueprint: E.C.M. System 5/6 180.0 ₢
Blueprint: Refinery (Type 1) 1/2 297.0 ₢
Blueprint: Refinery (Type 2) 1/2 360.0 ₢
Blueprint: Refinery (Type 3) 3/4 567.0 ₢
Blueprint: Refinery (Type 4) 5/6 900.0 ₢
Blueprint: Refinery (Type 5) 8/9 1462.5 ₢
Blueprint: Refinery (Type 6) 11/12 2142.0 ₢
Blueprint: Bar (Type 2) 1/2 297.0 ₢
Blueprint: Bar (Type 3) 2/3 675.0 ₢
Blueprint: Bar (Type 4) 3/4 1174.5 ₢
Blueprint: Bar (Type 5) 4/5 1800.0 ₢
Blueprint: Bar (Type 6) 5/6 3150.0 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 4 2/3 423.0 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 5 3/4 877.5 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 6 4/5 1687.5 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 7 5/6 2745.0 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 8 6/7 4441.5 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 9 7/8 7560.0 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 10 8/9 11 025.0 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 11 9/10 16 380.0 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 12 10/11 24 705.0 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 13 11/12 37 800.0 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 14 12/13 52 920.0 ₢
Blueprint: TechLevel 15 13/14 89 325.0 ₢
Blueprint: Auto-Repair Facility (Type 2) 1/2 450.0 ₢
Blueprint: Auto-Repair Facility (Type 3) 2/3 765.0 ₢
Blueprint: Auto-Repair Facility (Type 4) 4/5 1300.5 ₢
Blueprint: Auto-Repair Facility (Type 5) 6/7 1980.0 ₢
Blueprint: Auto-Repair Facility (Type 6) 9/10 4194.0 ₢
Blueprint: Restaurant (Type 1) 3/4 675.0 ₢
Blueprint: Restaurant (Type 2) 5/6 1260.0 ₢
Blueprint: Restaurant (Type 3) 6/7 2110.5 ₢
Blueprint: Restaurant (Type 4) 7/8 3375.0 ₢
Blueprint: Restaurant (Type 5) 8/9 5535.0 ₢
Blueprint: Restaurant (Type 6) 9/10 9558.0 ₢
Blueprint: Storage Capacity 60t 1/2 1188.0 ₢
Blueprint: Storage Capacity 80t 2/3 1606.5 ₢
Blueprint: Storage Capacity 100t 3/4 2025.0 ₢
Blueprint: Storage Capacity 140t 3/4 2565.0 ₢
Blueprint: Storage Capacity 200t 5/6 3870.0 ₢
Blueprint: Available space expansion 1 (300m²) 6/7 3874.5 ₢
Blueprint: Available space expansion 2 (500m²) 11/12 11 340.0 ₢
Blueprint: Turret defense 4/5 1575.0 ₢
Blueprint: Enhanced Turret defense 7/8 3330.0 ₢
Blueprint: Distillery (Type 1) 3/4 2025.0 ₢
Blueprint: Distillery (Type 2) 5/6 3150.0 ₢
Blueprint: Distillery (Type 3) 7/8 4288.5 ₢
Blueprint: Distillery (Type 4) 9/10 5400.0 ₢
Blueprint: Weapons Manufacturing (Type 1) 6/7 13 387.5 ₢
Blueprint: Weapons Manufacturing (Type 2) 8/9 17 595.0 ₢
Blueprint: Weapons Manufacturing (Type 3) 10/11 29 295.0 ₢
Blueprint: Narcotics Processing (Type 1) 4/5 24 232.5 ₢
Blueprint: Narcotics Processing (Type 2) 6/7 37 170.0 ₢
Blueprint: Narcotics Processing (Type 3) 8/9/10 43 380.0 ₢
Blueprint: Station Shipyard 4/5 24 937.7 ₢
Anyway, let me know what you think.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 7:53 am
by Cholmondely
Interesting - looking forwards to trying out your next installment. No idea yet about pricing - I'll need to try it first. Might it make sense to make the pricing adjustable via Library until you strike your desired equilibrium?
Should not Red Chaldo's "
The Hermit Almanac" contain a few of these blueprints? Maybe a smattering of the simpler ones - and one or two of the more complex but at an earlier stage of TL (if that is easily doable)?
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 8:01 am
by Cholmondely
And:
I'd like to, but I'm trying to maintain the *one thing* you MUST be able to do at your own Hermitage, which is to be able to save your game. In order to do that, the Rock Hermit has to be spawned in a certain way, and once spawned, some properties of the entity can't be changed without respawning it. And as soon as you respawn it, you can't save your game at the Rock Hermit until you leave the system and come back again.
Is this a potential vanilla game code change which if introduced might improve other oxp's too?
As regards your anarchy ideas - would it be possible for the pirates (or GalCop) to start their takeover while one was docked at the main orbital?
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 8:21 am
by phkb
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 7:53 am
Should not Red Chaldo's "The Hermit Almanac" contain a few of these blueprints?
You get a few blueprints by nature of having those upgrades pre-installed on your Hermitage. Of course, there's no need for the blueprint if you already have the item. So, maybe. I'll think about that one.
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 8:01 am
Is this a potential vanilla game code change which if introduced might improve other oxp's too?
The only core-code changes I'd consider for this would be to make some properties of stations read-write, rather than readonly. "equivalentTechLevel" and "equipmentPriceFactor" are probably easier as they have fewer flow-on impacts. "has_shipyard", though, is bigger, because the shipyard is only generated at spawn time. Turning the flag on or off would mean having to rerun the shipyard population routine, which may be complicated post-spawn. In all those examples, though, I'd need to go through the code and find out what other things are dependent on them, to actually assess the impact of making them read-write.
However, no core code changes are going to solve the issue of changing the station's data key. This is, essentially, putting a completely different station in the same location as the core station, and doing it after the system has populated means losing the save game option until the system is repopulated from scratch. So I don't think that one's an option.
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 8:01 am
As regards your anarchy ideas - would it be possible for the pirates (or GalCop) to start their takeover while one was docked at the main orbital?
My plans for that OXP would make any takeover happen "off screen", so you would always just arrive in a system to find it had already happened.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 9:16 am
by zx_cb
phkb wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 5:26 am
I've got some preliminary costs for the equipment components and blueprints for discussion. System TL requirement is also listed. Have I got things too high/low/about right?
I`d say it first needs some playtime to see how the hermitage economy balances out, what is easy and what`s hampering the progress - at this stage, just the basic mechanics working as intended would allow to do that.
Couple of considerations right away:
1. Anything that are sold on another Rock Hermits would be subject to their price multiplier, so your figures are basically quarter-fold.
2. Why RH upgrade blueprints has to be sold at RH stations only in the first place? Given their existence logic (minor independent mining station and trading outpost) and ubiquity (many systems having two or even tree at once), running a hermit is a commonplace business in the Galaxies, so it would be natural to have an economy supporting it based off the main stations and not among-themselves-only.
3. Blueprints and unique components are a good idea in general, but (I think) should be applied sparingly, only to some milestone pieces like larger reactor or higher level production facilities (and no TL upgrade requiring them, just the key prerequisite installations do). That way the player could establish basic operations without the need for extensive travel in search of "three-phase plasma transformer" and focus on management. I`m trying to put myself here in Adder shoes again :)
So just waiting for a stable release to playtest!
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 9:25 am
by phkb
zx_cb wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 9:16 am
Anything that are sold on another Rock Hermits would be subject to their price multiplier, so your figures are basically quarter-fold.
4.5 times on RH's, and I've already applied that factor to the numbers in the list above.
zx_cb wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 9:16 am
Why RH upgrade blueprints has to be sold at RH stations only in the first place?
Two reasons, one kind of leaning into the idea of RH's, the other gameplay.
1. I imagine RH's exist kind of in their own world, with their own network and interactions. And flowing on from that, having blueprints or schematics that you can only get from RH's then makes sense. Why would you look for details on how to upgrade your RH at a GalCop station?
2. The default gameplay loop revolves around main stations. Having to seek out RH's in other systems is a challenge, and encourages different play styles.
zx_cb wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 9:16 am
and no TL upgrade requiring them, just the key prerequisite installations do
Do you mean, you shouldn't need to upgrade your RH to (say) TL5 to add higher level equipment?
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 9:31 am
by Cody
phkb wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 9:25 amHaving to seek out RH's in other systems is a challenge, and encourages different play styles.
<nods>
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 9:48 am
by Cholmondely
phkb wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 9:25 am
1. I imagine RH's exist kind of in their own world, with their own network and interactions. And flowing on from that, having blueprints or schematics that you can only get from RH's then makes sense. Why would you look for details on how to upgrade your RH at a GalCop station?
But orbitals are a massive 1km cubed, with shipyards and chandlers, possibly even ship manufacturers. Would they not have most of what was needed, and at a far better price too? I know that the RH's are
supposed to be 750m cubed - but if you compare the sizes of the docking ports...