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Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:17 am
by curtsibling
Cmdr James wrote:curtsibling wrote:If uber-players wish to have restricted play, I think it should be a toggled option. So we are not all forced to adhere to masochist "Elite" mentality in gameplay.
I really think we should leave it to the player to make a choice. Let me underline the point that in a single player game it matters not a bit if the other guy is in
an ubership or not. Naturally in a Multiplayer, concerns about limits and such would indeed be relevant. What I see in some posts comes down to an almost
theocratic desire by purists to try and make us all share their views...An Oolite player should be allowed to decide...
You can already create a ship so fast and agile that it is impossible to use, and with as much energy and firepower as you want. What do you propose to make toggleable?
As far as I know there are relatively few limits on what you can do in an oxp, and those are largely limits of the game and the controls rather than impositions of the dev team.
If you read back a little, you will see I was (obviously) answering to a poster who wanted the current balance of Oolite made even more restricted.
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:37 am
by Killer Wolf
"Not having the game changed at the behest of those who want it made restricted and difficult so they can display some kind of elitism."
that's being a bit snobby. not everyone wants a limit to prove how clever they are. my wish for antiubericity is simply to keep things w/in a believable universe. it's all about immersion etc here, for a lot of people, and to me that means there should be a given range for various attributes. to not have something like this, is to me like having a Formula One game where you can set up your own car to have a top speed of 300mph and 3x the braking and road holding of anything else. granted anyone can NOT install an OXP, or alter a shipdata file. fair enough. i'm just saying if we're having all this talk about set universes and canon and what have you it makes sense (to ME) to have that universe defined in game code.
it's up to each player if they want to give their Cobra 900 energy and a top speed of 0.8LM etc, or design a ship that can do that. but as much as you could arbitrarily accuse anyone who wants limits as being a show-off, you could accuse people wanting that kind of stuff as inept cheaters.
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
by Commander McLane
curtsibling wrote:I just am eager to see Oolite retain the current enjoyable balance.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.
Oolite's balance hasn't changed a bit since version 1.00, and I don't think it's ever going to change (well, at least I don't foresee any changes). Therefore you
will see Oolite retain the current enjoyable balance, no matter what.
The only thing changing is what scripters are doing in their OXPs (which are not Oolite, but expansions of Oolite). OXPs can be used to expand (and therefore
alter) the balance found in vanilla Oolite. The only question is how drastically this alteration will be in each OXP, and how drastically it will be for the sum of OXPs.
I don't know whether you count me among the "purists". My appeal, which I am bringing before scripters—and especially ship designers—is to make expansions, changes, and alterations in such a way that the end result actually does not even retain (that would be too restrictive), but at least somehow resemble Oolite's enjoyable balance. That's all I'm advocating.
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:54 pm
by ClymAngus
Gentlemen please!
One thing that has kept me here is the infinite flavours hypothesis. One which dictates that individual rigorousness is not only encouraged but a duty of each individual player. If you make something that makes your game playing "right" then it is your duty to share it with us. Just as our duty dictates to our own personal game playing righteousness that we look carefully at each oxp and see if they rock our world.
If not then hey, your work may well embellish any number of other players worlds. Unlimited creation DEMANDS unlimited right to choose. I whole heartedly support any endeavour that makes the core programme more flexible. Just as olng as that flexibility can with an oxp be turned off. Anything but everything.
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:29 pm
by Ganelon
With so many OXPs to choose from, I doubt any of us (or hardly any) are playing the same exact flavour of the game anyway. You try different options, and keep the ones you like and get rid of the ones you don't. How one customises the game (or perhaps decides not to) is a reflection of personal tastes and philosophy. So long as it makes it so we play the game and enjoy it, we should all be able to agree that we like Oolite.
What should it matter to me if another player may be flying a ship twice as fast as mine or maybe half as much cargo hold? If they're having fun, that's cool. The game has a large variety of options you can choose from, including strict mode. I don't really get why anyone would have a complaint about that one way or the other.
Personally, I think the game always balances out, any way you play it. The balance may be a bit different for every individual's combination of options via OXP (or lack thereof), but so long as they play and enjoy it who cares if it might be a bit different than our own versions?
If it was a multiplayer game or if comparisons of rating or money one has in the game actually mattered to anyone, ok, I can kind of see where there might be a bit of haggling over matters to make sure we weren't comparing oranges to apples. I think the only real standard is "are you having a good time?".
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:53 pm
by tonyhippy
What I really like about this game is the flexibility it has. If I want to kareen around like a madman blasting everything there are OXPs that can help me do that. If I want more of a challenge I can drop some and start a new game trading precariously in an Anaconda. I play it both ways and shades in between. Sometimes I want and Uber ship. I'd like my own battleship with loads of turrets, were it possible and Cascade Missiles by the dozen, for when I'm in that kind of mood. One of my other Commanders flies a humble Scow.
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:59 pm
by curtsibling
Killer Wolf wrote:"Not having the game changed at the behest of those who want it made restricted and difficult so they can display some kind of elitism."
that's being a bit snobby. not everyone wants a limit to prove how clever they are. my wish for antiubericity is simply to keep things w/in a believable universe. it's all about immersion etc here, for a lot of people, and to me that means there should be a given range for various attributes. to not have something like this, is to me like having a Formula One game where you can set up your own car to have a top speed of 300mph and 3x the braking and road holding of anything else. granted anyone can NOT install an OXP, or alter a shipdata file. fair enough. i'm just saying if we're having all this talk about set universes and canon and what have you it makes sense (to ME) to have that universe defined in game code.
it's up to each player if they want to give their Cobra 900 energy and a top speed of 0.8LM etc, or design a ship that can do that. but as much as you could arbitrarily accuse anyone who wants limits as being a show-off, you could accuse people wanting that kind of stuff as inept cheaters.
I'd just like to point out:
I am not accusing anyone of anything, and I'm not being snobby, good sir.
This debate is going in circles, in any case. We all have different ideas of "Uber".
Personally I rate all other ship capabilities from the standpoint of the classic Cobra MkIII.
Sure, the Vortex or Caddy are monster ships, but playing is optional. And they are very rare.
It's funny when various folk get indignant when it is mooted that their desire to excel at Oolite in a 2nd hand Adder smacks of a tiny
bit of smug superiority. That isn't the real problem anyway. It is when these same folk call for changes in Oolite to reflect their own
brand of "Uber" that I have to comment. I don't want the game balance skewing to suit the tastes of a "super player's cabal..."
I meant no disrespect to folk on this fine forum, but I have seen one too many mod developments go south. I'd hate to see
Oolite become an unplayable game for the "Realism Junkies", and no-one else. I am (hopefully) sure that won't happen...
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:09 am
by curtsibling
Commander McLane wrote:
Oolite's balance hasn't changed a bit since version 1.00, and I don't think it's ever going to change (well, at least I don't foresee any changes). Therefore you will see Oolite retain the current enjoyable balance, no matter what.
That is really all I need to hear...
Commander McLane wrote:The only thing changing is what scripters are doing in their OXPs (which are not Oolite, but expansions of Oolite). OXPs can be used to expand (and therefore alter) the balance found in vanilla Oolite. The only question is how drastically this alteration will be in each OXP, and how drastically it will be for the sum of OXPs.
Well, that is down to the individual and his tastes.
I was just a bit worried when I heard a poster calling for OXPs to be somehow globally-crippled to stop crazy settings.
Crazy settings should be a choice, and the modder should be allowed to discover how game-warping they can be...
Commander McLane wrote:I don't know whether you count me among the "purists". My appeal, which I am bringing before scripters—and especially ship designers—is to make expansions, changes, and alterations in such a way that the end result actually does not even retain (that would be too restrictive), but at least somehow resemble Oolite's enjoyable balance. That's all I'm advocating.
I'm not picking out anyone at all. I mean no cheek or offence...
But trying to encourage the game-scripters and modders to subscribe to your personal vision?
How do you propose to make designers "tow the line", if not to forcefully restrict what we can do?
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:33 am
by Commander McLane
curtsibling wrote:But trying to encourage the game-scripters and modders to subscribe to your personal vision?
How do you propose to make designers "tow the line", if not to forcefully restrict what we can do?
Of course I cannot force anyone to do anything. That's why I chose the wording of 'bringing an appeal before them'. All I can do is argue my point, and it is everybody's free choice to agree or not.
Personally I think that my point and appeal makes some sense (of course I do), and therefore hope that people can be convinced. On the other hand, nothing and nobody requires an OXP to 'make sense'. Some people may not care about sense in their favourite game, which they are entitled to.
Myself I like sense, and I like a certain amount of consistency in the artificial world I am immersing myself into. Again, I am not forcing anybody to subscribe to this point of view.
There is just one thing which I am a little concerned about (which is part of my motivation for advocating for sense and balance), and that's the combination of OXPs which don't make sense, and players who want to install
all OXPs because they assume that this would automatically give them the best possible gameplay (this type exists). I am afraid that their Oolite experience will be twisted and they may reject the game because of it, which it doesn't deserve. Perhaps I shouldn't care, but I do (at least a little).
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:00 am
by curtsibling
Agree with the basis. As you know, the great thing about OXPs is the ability to tweak and edit them if we have the know how.
Indeed if a crazy or not so good OXP is among a "huge collection(tm)", it is more tricky to prune them out, but it can be done.
At the end of the day, you want Oolite to reflect your own view of the game style. And appealing to the scripters is like
going over everyone's head. While at the same time, you could just tweak all your OXPs to suit your vision of Oolite...?
But I will meet you halfway and say that yes, the game is best when things gel together...But who determines that?
You? Myself? It's all down to the mood of the players. Sometimes we want silly, other times we like challenge...
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:44 am
by Thargoid
I would present one piece of evidence - my Oocheat OXP (which is deliberately designed to make the player uber of course, by definition) has been downloaded 230 times in the last 3.5 months since it was released.
Even aside from uberships, that simple fact alone shows for me very clearly that there is a distinct section of the Commander corps who just want to go out and enjoy blasting things...
PS There is only one 
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:03 am
by Smivs
The other side of the coin, my
ToughGuys OXP, which is designed to increase the challenge faced by Commanders by beefing-up the baddies has been downloaded over 80 times now.
There are plenty of experienced players out there who find the standard game too easy and boring...they want life harder, not easier.
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:02 pm
by Fatleaf
Smivs wrote:The other side of the coin, my
ToughGuys OXP, which is designed to increase the challenge faced by Commanders by beefing-up the baddies has been downloaded over 80 times now.
There are plenty of experienced players out there who find the standard game too easy and boring...they want life harder, not easier.
Which just goes to show the diversity of the oxp. As a young Jameson would find it too hard and be put off if
ToughGuys were part of the core game and that wouldn't be good. But if someone finds the standard too easy and boring they could always edit the ship file to make it weaker
So a balance needs to be made between the novice and the Elite commander.
Did I read somewhere there is a
ToughGuys Apocalypse out there somewhere?
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:03 pm
by curtsibling
Thargoid wrote:There is only one
Ah! It's a reference to an old Elite short story!
And indeed, sir - It also could be taken as a nod to your good self!
Re: Antiubericity
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:06 pm
by Cody
Fatleaf wrote:
Did I read somewhere there is a
ToughGuys Apocalypse out there somewhere?
Coming soon, as I understand it... I think Smivs is still testing it.