RFC: Fancy classics

[ovvldc]

I like the 2.3 version of the FDL, though I would suggest integrating the nacelles with the rest of the ship a bit more. It isn't like using jet engines, as the space drives don't have an intake.

I'd also go for the pointy version as standard. I've always imagined the FDL as sort of a high-end courier/bounty hunter vessel and the pointy nose was part of the original. Also makes it look less like a BSG Colonial Viper or SW X-Wing.

As for the Cobra Mk1, I think there is too much detail here, giving it a fussy feel. I'd scrap the nacelles for sure. In general, these are ship made to work outside an atmosphere and land in space stations, so the underside needn't be so pronounced as in Earth aircraft.

That would be my comment in general too: have the paint schemes relatively similar on top and bottom. People look at you from all sides in space..

[Simon B]

These are useful, well-considered comments.

I like the 2.3 version of the FDL, though I would suggest integrating the nacelles with the rest of the ship a bit more. It isn't like using jet engines, as the space drives don't have an intake.

True - though the drives do have fuel scoops. However, I don't see cargo getting by these. Perhaps the actual scoop modification includes a divert to a different hatch when it's carge, splinters, escape-pods etc.

The front grills are not intended as intakes - more as something to stick on the front. Could also do samething fancy like the Imperial Courier.

Integrating more closely wold involve moving them into the arm more, or remodelling the arm or remodelling the nacelle to look like it's part of the arm....

I'd also go for the pointy version as standard. I've always imagined the FDL as sort of a high-end courier/bounty hunter vessel and the pointy nose was part of the original. Also makes it look less like a BSG Colonial Viper or SW X-Wing.

The pointy front is something I'm trying to keep. I'll have to play with different ways to acheive this. One way would be to make the nose shorter, and put a boom out the front, for eg.

As for the Cobra Mk1, I think there is too much detail here, giving it a fussy feel. I'd scrap the nacelles for sure. In general, these are ship made to work outside an atmosphere and land in space stations, so the underside needn't be so pronounced as in Earth aircraft.

Strictly speaking, these craft need to be able to sunskim. The underside should really be more enclosed or blocky (heat resistant).

They can also penetrate atmosphere enough for the sky to turn blue.

Note, though, that the lack of atmosphere drag also means one needn't (otherwise) worry about enclosing the entire ship in a streamlined fusilage. That's why the designs are more open.

That would be my comment in general too: have the paint schemes relatively similar on top and bottom. People look at you from all sides in space..

But the underside tends to get burnt sunskimming - so I've tended to not put paint there... just the identifying marks.

It is also useful in terms of gameplay - helps the player see the outline. but then, why cam? Marketing! (Cam sells fighters.) In those cases, a cunning commander can tumble the ship in combat creating a flashing "now you see me now you don't" effect which can confuse an enemy.

These are good comments - questioning my assumptions is important.

[Simon B]

As duly appointed design consultant to SB Starliners, I'm happy with the 2.3 version. I like the lines and the overall flow of the ship. Nice.

OK - lets put it t the board - Neolite Concepts division proposes Impression 2.3 as the standard release Fer de Lance.

If this idea is "not hated" then it's final.

One question though, about the concept of engine nacelles: the "standard" so far as canonical elite scribblings go has been a "drive sector", indicating a fully integrated drive system. The Imperial Courier was stated in FE2 as being different to the standard by having external nacelles. How does this fit into your design methodology?

The IC designers got the idea off us ;) - I'm imagining the single-engine version as the standard (perhaps older) - with the twin-engine as the high end edition. The modular design allows the owner to customize.

IC is an OXP only craft, the FDL has always been that "unique" craft anyway.

If people see the front grills as air intakes, then I'll need something else to decorate the front.

[Selezen]

I agree with OVVLDC, the nacelles could be restructured to look less like nacelles, at least from the front view. The nacelles could be merged into the main hull then reshaped at the front to merge into the nose area whilst retaining the rear shape and engine exhaust shape.



The red lines outline where the nacelles could mould into the main body. It would even retain more of the overall shape of the original. Venting grids could be drawn onto the sloping side to act as fuel scoops (not cargo scoops though - where would these be mounted?)

I like the idea of putting a spike on the end, even if it's only a short one on the end of a snub nose. Would differentiate the ship from the Viper too...

[Disembodied]

The more pointy and triangular it is, the more it looks like a Fer-de-Lance, I think. Maybe if, as Selezen suggest, the nacelles are drawn forward – maybe pulled even further forward – they could be given big ramscoopish vent openings? This could hark back to the long triangular windows on the original design (OK, they'd be on the sides, not the top, but still).

[ZygoUgo]

Those are pretty cool, but I always imagined it as a sort of barbarella kind of shag-pad with a dome at the back for bonking under the stars..Maybe it's time to get those reversed normals out..

[Simon B]

If I bring the nose back, I can, indeed make it very narrow. Also tucks the nose inside the site-lines.

The nacelle mods do not work on the model, they result in a constipated look or just make their seperateness more pronounced. I know it looks OK for the profiles, it's when you tumble it.

Going back to a single engine and changing the hull to provide the same lines just makes it look like a scared puffer-fish.

Otherwise the suggested mods have been very small. If you like, I can send you a model to tweak?

I believe the point of diminishing returns has been reached. Time to either shelve the design or shoot the engineers and go into production.

I'd like to hear from others - is this a Fer de Lance?

[Simon B]

Those are pretty cool, but I always imagined it as a sort of barbarella kind of shag-pad with a dome at the back for bonking under the stars..Maybe it's time to get those reversed normals out.. :D

Hah! No worries - easy to install a skylight - that boxy bit on top is the life section, it has enough room for a lux condo.

What's interesting is how different people have imagined the FDL - given what a simple model it is ... the details...

I figure it was like a Scarab (the boat) - except for the size.

[Pangloss]

The more I see of Simon's neo ships, the more I could easily imagine them as the new look of Oolite's standard core ships.

Just saying. Perhaps I'm not the only one.

They look great, and are very true to the original look. (Although I'd make the Fer-de-Lance pure sleek again with long side windows without the side engines)

No, you're not. I wouldn't mind having the newer ships as the new standard. As long as the basic geometry / scale is the same, all we're seeing is the logical progression for the models based on today's capabilities of our PCs and Macs. A Cobra Mk I and III have a pentagon-based shape, the Fer-de-lance is fat wedge, the Viper is a 'V' and so on.

[Screet]

I'd like to hear from others - is this a Fer de Lance?

From your latest three models, I like the "smoothed" one the most, and for me it would work very well. I like it!

The more pointy variant looks a bit odd to me, I'm not sure why. Maybe because the ship doesn't have direct edges leading towards that point, but that the ship still stays broad until it has a pointy pod on it's nose.

Concerning the different way people see these ships: On the C64 I had, somehow, much respect for those ships and always asked myself how it would be to fly such a thing. Somehow I thought it to be far superior to the CM3 in fighting abilities. Your current models look goes well into that direction.

As someone else mentioned in a previous post: It might be an idea to use multiple of those design with different stats for different types of customers. As the FDL NG is already much higher powerd, I believe it would be an idea to have at least one version of that ship with good fighting capability.

Indeed, both FDL and especially the Adder in Oolite do appear MUCH too weak to me.

Screet

[JensAyton]

Those are pretty cool, but I always imagined it as a sort of barbarella kind of shag-pad with a dome at the back for bonking under the stars..Maybe it's time to get those reversed normals out.. :D

I’m so glad we don’t do censorship around here. :-)
Testing the limits of that statement may become a banning offense, though…

The more I see of Simon's neo ships, the more I could easily imagine them as the new look of Oolite's standard core ships.

Just saying. Perhaps I'm not the only one.

They look great, and are very true to the original look. (Although I'd make the Fer-de-Lance pure sleek again with long side windows without the side engines)

No, you're not. I wouldn't mind having the newer ships as the new standard. As long as the basic geometry / scale is the same, all we're seeing is the logical progression for the models based on today's capabilities of our PCs and Macs. A Cobra Mk I and III have a pentagon-based shape, the Fer-de-lance is fat wedge, the Viper is a 'V' and so on.

I’ve said before that I’m openish to the idea of replacing the core ships (or having an “official” high-def OXP) as long as there’s a complete replacement set with consistent design/art direction. Making Simon do all the work would perhaps be an effective way of achieving this.

[Screet]

I’ve said before that I’m openish to the idea of replacing the core ships (or having an “official” high-def OXP) as long as there’s a complete replacement set with consistent design/art direction. Making Simon do all the work would perhaps be an effective way of achieving this.

Not only effective, but very good looking!

...and if there's no complete replacement, I'll add that oxp!

Screet

[ZygoUgo]

I’m so glad we don’t do censorship around here.
Testing the limits of that statement may become a banning offense, though…

Sorry Ahruman, Sometimes I read the Taleworlds forums, I never knew there were so many shades of blue Must have forgot where I was for a second!

[Selezen]

I’ve said before that I’m openish to the idea of replacing the core ships (or having an “official” high-def OXP) as long as there’s a complete replacement set with consistent design/art direction. Making Simon do all the work would perhaps be an effective way of achieving this.

I'd be fully behind that motion. It was kind of the plan for the Dream Team concepts, but my usual "start a project and never finish it" trick seems to have got in the way of that.

If Simon is up for it I'd be happy to see the Neolite concepts part of the official build. Could the original designs be included only in the Strict version of Oolite?

@Simon: yeah, if you want to release the model for tweaking I'll have a play.

[Simon B]

Those are pretty cool, but I always imagined it as a sort of barbarella kind of shag-pad with a dome at the back for bonking under the stars..Maybe it's time to get those reversed normals out.. :D

I’m so glad we don’t do censorship around here. :-)
Testing the limits of that statement may become a banning offense, though…

Argh - now I'll have to scrap the waterbed model... at least the skylight works.

I’ve said before that I’m openish to the idea of replacing the core ships (or having an “official” high-def OXP) as long as there’s a complete replacement set with consistent design/art direction. Making Simon do all the work would perhaps be an effective way of achieving this.

Wow thanks ... I think - I'll try not to let it go to my head.

I'd like to point out that I'm distributing the obj files with the oxp, so you can tweak any ship which has a skin. I'll get a seperate archive of "in development" objs as a model stabilizes (otherwise it will change too fast). That should help with this trickier design process.

So if you think a model should have a different design - just open it up and play. Especially as some of you have professional tools ...

That's just for convenience though, I've soon a dat2obj script in the source tree. The tools in there are essential!

BTW: I've been testing the ships in the game: it is pretty seriously keen! Without shaders, the high polys make not a shred of difference to the speed.

[My specs: 1.8GHz Duo + nvidia 6800 + Ubuntu Gutsy - compiz switched off ... for comparison, the system redux oxp is a strain.]

I have lower spec machines here, which I'll test later.
The alpha oxp causes random crashes - this is expected. If you want to see what it looks like sans classics, erase all the "classic-xyz" entries in the shipyard and shipdata.

Since it's come up - shall I just remove those entries anyway? The result will prevent all the old ships appearing...

While you're all thinking about this - have a think about the cobras, they are really giving me trouble. I feel that these models, more than any other, need to be good. Particularly the cm3 - it's the first ship you see in the game, in a way, it is the game.

Need a checklist ...