Oolite Bulletins

hiran wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:11 pm

So what might help here could be a leadership team (don't know how many members it should have) that could setup strategies/policies/... and nudge other contributors to actually follow those strategies. With that every snippet of time and effort could help achieve the big picture.

If there were a todo-list with well-defined tasks, maybe even newcomers like me could pick something and create meaningful output.

Fair enough!

Alas, we're all volunteers, just like you, and perhaps nobody desires to be part of such a leadership team! Looking at what I know of the history of Oolite, it does make sense:

Aegidian started the ball rolling and got the bit between his teeth, wanting to produce a good version of Elite for the AppleMac. After 3 years he stepped down having produced the first stable version (1.65).

Jens officially took over, wanting to bring Oolite "up-to-date" with the various major changes which he introduced, and, again, took years to come out with his first stable version (1.76). I'd not realised that he never formally induced cim as the 3rd Lead Developer.

Cim seems to have been much faster and was at the helm for maybe 2 years. He was thinking about Oolite in the round - Does the Ooniverse make sense, how do piracy and trade fit together in the trade system, how does one teach newcomers to the game who will no longer read a manual, how to make trade more realistic, what else can be done with the Oolite game engine, etc. 2 major new versions, implementing a vision of what Oolite could be.

I do wonder if it was all part of a BSc/MSc/PhD project in Cim's computing degree(s?) at the University of Durham (if they didn't give him a first-class degree/distinction, we should go there en-masse and massacre the Computing department dons!). That might help account for the speed with which things got done.

But when cim stood down - after the massive burst of energy over those two years, the massive changes that were implemented combined with the loss of people to the newly resurrected E:D (and possibly others who were cheesed off at the changes to the game), one can well see that nobody would have been prepared to "take over" what might now have been a poisoned chalice (due to expectations that had been built up due to the breadth of Cim's approach to game development and also the amount of time Cim had devoted to the Leading Developership).

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:04 am

Jens officially took over, wanting to bring Oolite "up-to-date" with the various major changes which he introduced, and, again, took years to come out with his first stable version (1.76).

At one point during his tenure, Jens disappeared (for a year or so). That's when DH and I were volunteered into becoming forum admins.

So the next release (once again) will focus on graphic improvements. While this is certainly important how about some advancement in game functions as well ? I am pretty sure I am wasting my energy with this post but a wider market, for example, or even the including of some popular OXP's to the core-game could make sense as well.

montana05 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:25 pm

So the next release (once again) will focus on graphic improvements. While this is certainly important how about some advancement in game functions as well ? I am pretty sure I am wasting my energy with this post but a wider market, for example, or even the including of some popular OXP's to the core-game could make sense as well.

So what would you like to see? Just curious!

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:58 pm

montana05 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:25 pm

So the next release (once again) will focus on graphic improvements. While this is certainly important how about some advancement in game functions as well ? I am pretty sure I am wasting my energy with this post but a wider market, for example, or even the including of some popular OXP's to the core-game could make sense as well.

So what would you like to see? Just curious!

Assuming the question was for the public I will post what I see:
For the next release I would probably go for the build environment
- improvements on troubleshooting
- improvements on automated testing
- improvements on homogenous documentation
as an investment to easier process changes in future.

Oolite is a high quality space simulation with really nice graphics, lots of equipment and several galaxies worth exploring.
I just ran into lots of questions how to fly this or that ship, or even more how to operate this and that equipment until I finally had to find out that the OXPs can vastly modify the game - maybe a reason why documentation is scarce.
That is where I'd like to see some more items documented, in a quality that users who need/want the documentation really find help.

I am not a oolite developer, but I also got the feeling users have to describe situations at their best and developers would then have to spend effort replaying that situation to really find a problem.

But this might be stuff for the developers, and this thread is more about the wiki and how we manage that.

Here the more homogenous documentation will still apply. For every ship, every equipment, every other item of the Ooniverse should exist a page with meaningful content. But to get there it might be worth more to find this leadership team, and they would define a list of missions, packages or subprojects that others can choose from. And here is the value of a leadership team: single persons can come and go, but there should be a transition so the leadership team is always staffed. Similar as it happened with development, where progress was big under a great leader.

hiran wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:54 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:58 pm

montana05 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:25 pm

So the next release (once again) will focus on graphic improvements. While this is certainly important how about some advancement in game functions as well ? I am pretty sure I am wasting my energy with this post but a wider market, for example, or even the including of some popular OXP's to the core-game could make sense as well.

So what would you like to see? Just curious!

Assuming the question was for the public I will post what I see:
For the next release I would probably go for the build environment
- improvements on troubleshooting
- improvements on automated testing
- improvements on homogenous documentation
as an investment to easier process changes in future.

Oolite is a high quality space simulation with really nice graphics, lots of equipment and several galaxies worth exploring.
I just ran into lots of questions how to fly this or that ship, or even more how to operate this and that equipment until I finally had to find out that the OXPs can vastly modify the game - maybe a reason why documentation is scarce.
That is where I'd like to see some more items documented, in a quality that users who need/want the documentation really find help.

I am not a oolite developer, but I also got the feeling users have to describe situations at their best and developers would then have to spend effort replaying that situation to really find a problem.

But this might be stuff for the developers, and this thread is more about the wiki and how we manage that.

Here the more homogenous documentation will still apply. For every ship, every equipment, every other item of the Ooniverse should exist a page with meaningful content. But to get there it might be worth more to find this leadership team, and they would define a list of missions, packages or subprojects that others can choose from. And here is the value of a leadership team: single persons can come and go, but there should be a transition so the leadership team is always staffed. Similar as it happened with development, where progress was big under a great leader.

Hiran, I'd argue that all this is in Cim's excellent Ship's Manual. Only two problems with it: (i) it has a low profile and I doubt many people realise it exists/download it/look at it. (ii) you have to pay for the MFD version so that you can read it in flight during the long journeys from the witchpoint to the orbital station.

If I had the skills I'd make the MFD version free. I also think it should be updated to include the meagre handful of new keyboard commands - and that it should be part of the initial game download. It is the single most excellent introduction to the game - it is comprehensive (not to knock Disembodied's sterling efforts with Mr Gimlet).

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:33 pm

Hiran, I'd argue that all this is in Cim's excellent Ship's Manual. Only two problems with it: (i) it has a low profile and I doubt many people realise it exists/download it/look at it. (ii) you have to pay for the MFD version so that you can read it in flight during the long journeys from the witchpoint to the orbital station.

If I had the skills I'd make the MFD version free. I also think it should be updated to include the meagre handful of new keyboard commands - and that it should be part of the initial game download. It is the single most excellent introduction to the game - it is comprehensive (not to knock Disembodied's sterling efforts with Mr Gimlet).

So that extension is what I thought it would be. I was even able to purchase it, then I was not able to activate/use it. It may be a hen/egg problem...

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:58 pm

So what would you like to see? Just curious!

For starters:

We still have some excellent ships from Griff out there, Bug, Gnat or Wolf Mark II for example. There are several laser variants in OXP's, specially Redspear gave it a deeper thought. All of that could be (very) easy implemented to the core-game without changing the balance a lot. Add 2 -3 more commodities, Strangers SW Economy is an example of that. This suggestion need a deeper look because it does change the game balance.

Let me say it very blunt, when a pack of pirates is after me, I need a good ship and powerful weapons, if the shadow of the ship looks real is very low on my list.

I am not even suggesting including some of cims features because I am aware that before a_c will do that I got a blizzard at my current location.

hiran wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:39 am

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:33 pm

Hiran, I'd argue that all this is in Cim's excellent Ship's Manual. Only two problems with it: (i) it has a low profile and I doubt many people realise it exists/download it/look at it. (ii) you have to pay for the MFD version so that you can read it in flight during the long journeys from the witchpoint to the orbital station.

If I had the skills I'd make the MFD version free. I also think it should be updated to include the meagre handful of new keyboard commands - and that it should be part of the initial game download. It is the single most excellent introduction to the game - it is comprehensive (not to knock Disembodied's sterling efforts with Mr Gimlet).

So that extension is what I thought it would be. I was even able to purchase it, then I was not able to activate/use it. It may be a hen/egg problem...

Definitely is! You need a HUD.oxp loaded which supports MFDs (I presume that the Vanilla game HUD doesn't), and you need to understand the use of the : and ; keys to control the MFDs.

montana05 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:34 am

... very low on my list.

Therein lies the problem - everyone has different lists.

montana05 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:34 am

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:58 pm

So what would you like to see? Just curious!

For starters:

We still have some excellent ships from Griff out there, Bug, Gnat or Wolf Mark II for example. There are several laser variants in OXP's, specially Redspear gave it a deeper thought. All of that could be (very) easy implemented to the core-game without changing the balance a lot. Add 2 -3 more commodities, Strangers SW Economy is an example of that. This suggestion need a deeper look because it does change the game balance.

Let me say it very blunt, when a pack of pirates is after me, I need a good ship and powerful weapons, if the shadow of the ship looks real is very low on my list.

Interesting. As with the debate over counting kills of abandoned ships, I'm not sure that I agree. Sorry! Admittedly, I'm truly familiar with a mere handful of other computer games (Diablo I & II, MacPopulous II & Civilisation III) so I don't have the context to truly judge what a modern game needs to attract players.

For me, I'd argue that the game engine is good - although I can see very good arguments for keeping the graphics up-to-date. It is simple, even though it is illogical in places. I'd argue for including the following oxps as part of the core game with the option to opt out of them:

• XenonUI: vital reminders of what the numerous keyboard options are for the various GUI screens (F5/F6/F7/F8).

• Ship's Library OXP: with free MFD to read the ship's manual in flight [needs MFD friendly HUD & instructions on their use].

• GalCop Galactic Registry: vital database of the galaxy

• MarketObserver: provides vital comparison information for commodity prices on the F8 screen to help profit on trades

I'd also add a bunch of others of the ambience variety, and a few of the others.

Personally I see my Ooniverse through the lens of the introduction on the Oolite.org website:

The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to. The trade ships that once safely travelled between planets now have to be well armed and escorted to fend off pirate attacks, from small-time criminals desperate for their next meal, to powerful robber barons extracting tithes from everyone who passes through their space.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.

So I expect to spend my early years running away until I can build up my ship. When I have done so, I will know enough about the game to work out which .oxps I want to add to it. I don't expect a super ship. And the pirates would have them too.

Now what would be super, would be to either use the game mechanic built in by Cim or Norby's collection style of .oxp to have different universes: A more friendly Cherryh-style trading universe. Perhaps another with an organised enemy (daleks or klingons or whatever). A discovery universe. etc.

I'm not sure that any of that would need changes to the game engine. More like a selection of Norby's Collection-style oxps with one or two new oxps to fill in the gaps (emulating Cherryh would need "family-run" large trading ships & externally docking space stations, for example).

Cody wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:51 am

montana05 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:34 am

... very low on my list.

Therein lies the problem - everyone has different lists.

You are right, I am sure a lot of players will appreciate a great shadow before the need to press space

montana05 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:02 pm

Cody wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:51 am

montana05 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:34 am

... very low on my list.

Therein lies the problem - everyone has different lists.

You are right, I am sure a lot of players will appreciate a great shadow before the need to press space

Sorry: I should have written: Personally I see my Ooniverse through the shadows of the introduction on the Oolite.org website:

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:12 pm

Sorry: I should have written: Personally I see my Ooniverse through the shadows of the introduction on the Oolite.org website:

Improving the graphics is great, but does it attract more players to join, I don't think so. a_c is putting this game sideways not forwards. I would include multiple lasers to the core, hell, there is an opinion for effects only. If you want to be serious include Norby"s ideas as well. Oolite is NOT Elite anymore, time to prove it before this game is going done.

Just to get back to the wiki, for a moment!

Hiran's idea of automating the wiki will run across one problem: avoiding duplication of what is already on the wiki. We have a wide plethora of different styles for naming oxps in ways which deviate from the names on the Expansions Manager. I would suspect that the amount of time required for sorting through the duplications will be non-trivial. But hopefully less than the amount of time needed to write those pages from scratch!