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Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:14 am
by Cholmondely
phkb wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:29 am
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:54 am
Changing the prices in my own market seems a tad clunky.
Yes.
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:54 am
The prices changes are nested deep in the F4 interface (F4 page > RH Management (on my 3rd page) > Market Functions > Individual commodity price management).
I saw tweaking prices as something you wouldn't be doing all the time, or even that regularly. It takes some time for there to be any visible results from pricing tweaks, given how often the updating script runs, so having the options buried a little inside the management screen didn't seem so bad.
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:54 am
Would it be better to have
Yes.
...
Oh, you were looking for a more expansive answer? Ok...
Ideally, I would like to rewrite the entire F8 Market screen to allow the combination of a number of functions. At the present time, though, with the limitations mission screens have with keyboard input, I wouldn't be able to achieve a one-screen version of all that would need to be done. At best, it would be a multi-page screen, where all the commodities are listed (but without the ability to use the page up/down keys, because mission screens can't use those) and you would then have to select the commodity you want to work with, which would bring up another screen with all the sub-commands you might like to run (transfer to cargo/storage/market, change price) and each of these would need another screen where you enter the amounts.
I mean, if that sounds better than the current implementation, I could put it together, but my feeling is that it would be kind of jarring to have such a different F8 page in play. What do you think?
So, I don't know how much the F8 really matters, because you
are creating a different game here. But I found it
did matter to me - I would end up with slightly different prices for stuff like Witchfire Whisky, and if the price was slightly higher than the main station, I'd end up being sold oodles of it by passing traders - and my cash buffer would run out in no time flat! So I ended up having to keep a keen eye on the price all the jolly time, so that I wouldn't end up being de-Hermitised by the bailiffs. I also found that my fuel sold out pretty quickly too, preventing a runner if they did turn up...
These issues, conjoined with my blithering inability to work out what I was supposed to be doing (all those coffee marks staining the crucial pages of Red Chaldo's Hermit Almanac), led me to retreat in confusion & shame...
Subjecthood
By the way, my magnificent mighty & marvellous machine says this:
Code: Select all
00:52:06.045 [startup.complete] -[GameController applicationDidFinishLaunching:] (GameController.m:269): ========== Loading complete in 1.33 seconds. ==========
00:52:11.565 [shipData.load.begin] +[OOShipRegistry(Singleton) allocWithZone:] (OOShipRegistry.m:1689): Loading ship data.
00:52:12.262 [script.javaScript.exception.illegalCharacter] ReportJSError (OOJavaScriptEngine.m:204): ***** JavaScript exception (RexebeCitizen.anon-script): SyntaxError: illegal character
00:52:12.262 [script.javaScript.load.failed] -[OOJSScript initWithPath:properties:] (OOJSScript.m:267): ***** Error loading JavaScript script /Users/accountname/Library/Application Support/Oolite/AddOns/RexebeCitizen.oxp/Config/script.js -- compilation failed
happy. I even transmogrified your RexebeCitizen.oxp into a DigebitiSubject.oxp, only to be met with a similar fate... I feel that
The Notorious Knucklebones of Negation once again have it in for me...
Hope all is well down under... Been spending a lot of time looking at how and why the seasons are different in your neck of the woods to mine. All to do with angles! Quite fascinating...
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:19 am
by phkb
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:14 am
By the way, my magnificent mighty & marvellous machine says this:
Code: Select all
00:52:06.045 [startup.complete] -[GameController applicationDidFinishLaunching:] (GameController.m:269): ========== Loading complete in 1.33 seconds. ==========
00:52:11.565 [shipData.load.begin] +[OOShipRegistry(Singleton) allocWithZone:] (OOShipRegistry.m:1689): Loading ship data.
00:52:12.262 [script.javaScript.exception.illegalCharacter] ReportJSError (OOJavaScriptEngine.m:204): ***** JavaScript exception (RexebeCitizen.anon-script): SyntaxError: illegal character
00:52:12.262 [script.javaScript.load.failed] -[OOJSScript initWithPath:properties:] (OOJSScript.m:267): ***** Error loading JavaScript script /Users/accountname/Library/Application Support/Oolite/AddOns/RexebeCitizen.oxp/Config/script.js -- compilation failed
Not happy.
I probably should have tested it myself before publishing! I'll do that now and report back.
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:14 am
Been spending a lot of time looking at how and why the seasons are different in your neck of the woods to mine. All to do with angles! Quite fascinating...
Honestly, with the way the weather has been lately, I'm not convinced our seasons are so different - normally by December we should be scoring regular 30+ days with lots of sun. At the moment, it's quite cool (low 20's) and rain every day!
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:34 am
by phkb
OK, here's a link to an OXZ that I've now tested and confirmed it works as intended:
RexebeCitizen.oxz. There was a bug in the code I shared before, but it shouldn't have caused an invalid character error. That's weird.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:36 am
by Cholmondely
phkb wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:34 am
OK, here's a link to an OXZ that I've now tested and confirmed it works as intended:
RexebeCitizen.oxz. There was a bug in the code I shared before, but it shouldn't have caused an invalid character error. That's weird.
Bingo!
Thanks a million!!
Digebitification doth hereby ensue....
I'll speak with cousin Digby about doubling your salary... I really don't think that you Admiral chappies get sufficiently remunerated for your efforts... Pink gins at the Admiralty Bar are all very well, but one needs a certain something to keep one's Supreme Uxorial Counterpart in the style to which she should grow accustomed...
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:43 pm
by Cholmondely
Started up Humbert the Hermit the Fifth.
This business with the listing of the separate listings for prices and quantities is doing me in.
•F4 screen > Rock Hermit Management > Market Function > 23 commodities (to compare prices with main station)
vs
•F8 screen to see what is in my market and on my ship
and then
•F4 screen > Rock Hermit Management > Miscellaneous Services > Visit Cargo storage area to see what's in storage.
Each and every one of these commodities now shows a different price to the main station orbital market. In some cases a 200% difference in price. I've already lost 700₢ in 24 hours due to people selling me stuff because my prices are now higher (and it's almost all stuff I really don't want: eg Firearms).
I can't just reduce the price of everything to zero. The last time I did (Humbert IV), the traders came and cleared me out of everything. So I have to juggle between 3 screens to see what I have, where I have it and then work out what to do with it. A pain in the veritable unmentionables...
And juggling between 3 different screens for each of 23 commodities is not what I would call fun...
Is this an easy fix?
I really need all the information on the one screen, with the ability to change prices and the ability to juggle the stuff between market, storage & ship on that very same screen. A toggle to allow prices to be kept perpetually at those of the main orbital would be nice.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:23 am
by phkb
Hmm. Not sure. Getting the info onto one screen is possible - making it work for multiple use-cases (change price/move cargo from or to various end points) might be trickier. I'll have a go and see how it looks.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:43 am
by phkb
I'm having a rethink on some of the logic I built into Hermitage, in particular around having TL on commodities. While interesting in theory, it does throw up a couple of inconsistencies.
1. If there is a discernible quality difference between TL1 Alloys and TL13 Alloys, why aren't those differences represented by having different commodity prices on the market screen?
2. I can't track the commodities outside of the ships hold and the Hermitage storage area. Once things go to the market, I loose track of any TL that might have been attached to said commodities and then have to assume the TL is whatever the station/system is. That creates two potential scenarios, neither of which is desirable: moving low TL commodites from storage or hold to a high TL station would elevate those barrels to the higher TL (creating something of an exploit); moving high TL commodities from storage or hold to a low TL station would degrade those barrels to the lower TL (which would be considered a bug).
I could (I suppose) rewrite the F8 market screen to work around all those limitations, but that's a bit (!) beyond the scope I want for this OXP. Plus I couldn't give players the same look and feel of the current page, so it would feel like a downgrade.
So, it was an interesting experiment, but I think this system might have to go. Part of the reason for having the system in the first place was to force the player into higher-risk actions (of leaving their station unattended to visit nearby systems for those commodities), rather than having them just hot-foot it over to the main station and pick up whatever resources are needed. Perhaps a better system would be that you are required to purchase the blueprints for the things you want to make, but you can only get them from higher TL systems. For example, if you want to update to a Type 4 Distillery, you need to purchase the blueprint from a TL10 system, and you would only get the option to purchase a Type 4 Distillery blueprint once you have the blueprint for a Type 3.
What do you think?
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:43 am
by Cholmondely
phkb wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:43 am
I'm having a rethink on some of the logic I built into Hermitage, in particular around having TL on commodities. While interesting in theory, it does throw up a couple of inconsistencies.
1. If there is a discernible quality difference between TL1 Alloys and TL13 Alloys, why aren't those differences represented by having different commodity prices on the market screen?
2. I can't track the commodities outside of the ships hold and the Hermitage storage area. Once things go to the market, I loose track of any TL that might have been attached to said commodities and then have to assume the TL is whatever the station/system is. That creates two potential scenarios, neither of which is desirable: moving low TL commodites from storage or hold to a high TL station would elevate those barrels to the higher TL (creating something of an exploit); moving high TL commodities from storage or hold to a low TL station would degrade those barrels to the lower TL (which would be considered a bug).
I could (I suppose) rewrite the F8 market screen to work around all those limitations, but that's a bit (!) beyond the scope I want for this OXP. Plus I couldn't give players the same look and feel of the current page, so it would feel like a downgrade.
So, it was an interesting experiment, but I think this system might have to go. Part of the reason for having the system in the first place was to force the player into higher-risk actions (of leaving their station unattended to visit nearby systems for those commodities), rather than having them just hot-foot it over to the main station and pick up whatever resources are needed. Perhaps a better system would be that you are required to purchase the blueprints for the things you want to make, but you can only get them from higher TL systems. For example, if you want to update to a Type 4 Distillery, you need to purchase the blueprint from a TL10 system, and you would only get the option to purchase a Type 4 Distillery blueprint once you have the blueprint for a Type 3.
What do you think?
At first glance, that makes sense. But in the glorious future, it would all be in Red Chaldo's Almanac, or downloadable through the internet using Phkb's email system.
Why not just need special stuff, not "TL3 machinery" but one-off special "refrigeration bar-keeping units" which are otherwise treated as machinery (and can only be bought in Xexedi and a couple of other places) - just like New Cargoes, in fact... You could just raid New Cargoes for the bits you need... The trade restrictions are irrelevant here, no?
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:56 pm
by phkb
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:43 am
But in the glorious future, it would all be in Red Chaldo's Almanac, or downloadable through the internet using Phkb's email system.
Not sure yet - this is more of an idea than a fully formed plan! Thinking out loud, possibly both.
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:43 am
Why not just need special stuff, not "TL3 machinery" but one-off special "refrigeration bar-keeping units" which are otherwise treated as machinery (and can only be bought in Xexedi and a couple of other places)
Mainly because coming up with "Blueprint: Distillery Type 4" (repeated for almost every one of the upgradable items) is a whole lot easier than coming up with unique pieces of equipment only related to the building of said distillery. Also, how far down do you go? Breaking down a distillery into component parts, then putting those parts out in the universe somewhere to purchase, then doing that for all the other upgrades - this is why I wanted to use the commodities for the construction elements. It gives a new purpose to those commodities, rather than just being for making money.
Some of this comes down to the concept of how these upgrades are being made. You, as the player, are not standing there with a hydrospanner, three lengths of fiber-optic cable and an instruction manual. In my mind, you have a construction droid (or several of them) who you can give the blueprints to along with the raw resources and they go away and put the thing together. But all of that is going on in my head, rather than in the code!
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:27 am
by Cholmondely
phkb wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:56 pm
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:43 am
But in the glorious future, it would all be in Red Chaldo's Almanac, or downloadable through the internet using Phkb's email system.
Not sure yet - this is more of an idea than a fully formed plan! Thinking out loud, possibly both.
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:43 am
Why not just need special stuff, not "TL3 machinery" but one-off special "refrigeration bar-keeping units" which are otherwise treated as machinery (and can only be bought in Xexedi and a couple of other places)
Mainly because coming up with "Blueprint: Distillery Type 4" (repeated for almost every one of the upgradable items) is a whole lot easier than coming up with unique pieces of equipment only related to the building of said distillery. Also, how far down do you go? Breaking down a distillery into component parts, then putting those parts out in the universe somewhere to purchase, then doing that for all the other upgrades - this is why I wanted to use the commodities for the construction elements. It gives a new purpose to those commodities, rather than just being for making money.
Some of this comes down to the concept of how these upgrades are being made. You, as the player, are not standing there with a hydrospanner, three lengths of fiber-optic cable and an instruction manual. In my mind, you have a construction droid (or several of them) who you can give the blueprints to along with the raw resources and they go away and put the thing together. But all of that is going on in my head, rather than in the code!
Not seventeen pieces of named machinery for bar-building: but 15 TC of machinery with 1TC of Xexedian refrigeration bar-keeping units & 1TC of Ensorean low-gravity foam-frothing spume-synthesisers. And the construction droids, too.
But opening a tea-rooms in my RH - gosh! The ceramic teacups, saucers & pots. The doilies. Where does one get decent doilies nowadays? Sourcing the broken orange pekoe. And tea-cakes... how does one manage decent teacakes on a Rock Hermit? Are the ovens up to it? Scones with a good choice of conserves... Italian sour cherry jam (Amarena) is rather jolly... do I really have to go all the way to Tibecea to get some?
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:36 am
by phkb
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:27 am
Not seventeen pieces of named machinery for bar-building: but 15 TC of machinery with 1TC of Xexedian refrigeration bar-keeping units & 1TC of Ensorean low-gravity foam-frothing spume-synthesisers. And the construction droids, too.
Still, that's 2 unique equipment items for 1 piece of kit. And bad luck if your RH is located in Tibecea. Or in Sector 2-8.
While blueprints aren't as cool sounding as "Xexedian refrigeration bar-keeping units" and "Ensorean low-gravity foam-frothing spume-synthesisers" (which are really cool!) I would need to work out unique names for every level of bar (1-6) and then find places for them all in every sector. That sounds like a lot of work! Much simpler to use boring blueprints available at certain TL systems.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:21 am
by Cholmondely
phkb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:36 am
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:27 am
Not seventeen pieces of named machinery for bar-building: but 15 TC of machinery with 1TC of Xexedian refrigeration bar-keeping units & 1TC of Ensorean low-gravity foam-frothing spume-synthesisers. And the construction droids, too.
Still, that's 2 unique equipment items for 1 piece of kit. And bad luck if your RH is located in Tibecea. Or in Sector 2-8.
While blueprints aren't as cool sounding as "Xexedian refrigeration bar-keeping units" and "Ensorean low-gravity foam-frothing spume-synthesisers" (which are really cool!) I would need to work out unique names for every level of bar (1-6) and then find places for them all in every sector. That sounds like a lot of work! Much simpler to use boring blueprints available at certain TL systems.
More than happy to help... And I'm not sure that each level of bar needs such remarkable pieces of equipment. Maybe just the top 4? And maybe have companies which perhaps only exist at TL14+ making the stuff. The lower level TL stuff is so much easier to get... even if at a premium outside the home manufactory...
But how much of all this is reproducible inside Oolite?
Hiran is looking for ways of amplifying his Oolite Communicator. Are Ensorean low-gravity foam-frothing spume-synthesisers the way for him to go? Individual players whizz over to Ensoreus to buy up copious quantities for the other players playing Hermitage to let them serve their beers in the time-honoured fashion (pouring it frothily down the back of their necks...)
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:27 am
by phkb
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:21 am
But how much of all this is reproducible inside Oolite?
All that we've been describing is reproducible. It's the just the volume of work in coming up with all the items in the first place.
For the moment, I'll work on the blueprint side of things, and allow for the possibility of additional equipment requirements. I'll be some time removing the TL commodity code, so there's no rush.
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:20 pm
by Cholmondely
Continuously edited list of vital equipment for Hermitage.
Core Systems
Life Support (Types 1-6) Bioregenerative cyanobacterial substrate synthesiser, Radioisotopic Thermoelectric Generator Cooling Manager, Water Coolant Loop System, Diluent gas eliminator, "ManoLife life support systems",
Structural Reinforcement (Types 1-6) "Silastoplaston fibres", "HiFlux chromon alloys",
Fuel Reserve (40-150LY)
Available space expansion (Types 1-2)
General Operations
Navigational Beacon "service satellites",
Fast-Docking System "Tri-Axial grid maps", "AutoCom communicators",
Black Market "CorCom trading computers", "HoloFac messaging systems",
Auto-Repair Facility (Types 1-6) (Tianve) Wrogerian Self-replicatory Repair Droids, "Silastoplaston fibres",
Distillery (Types 1-4) (?) Tri-clamp sight glass, (?) ASME Low pressure safety valve, Bain Marie Alembic Still, Mash Tun
Weapons Manufacturing (Types 1-3) (Laenin) Arquebusian Arms-Automata, vibronic solid-state maser ablater, optical parametric oscillators
Narcotics Processing (Types 1-3) (?) Montanistic Biospherical Laboratory, presynaptic opioid hyperpolarizer, cyclo-oxygenasian alembic, "frozen bladderlash products", "Arcturan Burstweed", "...ian tobacco",
Refinery (Types 1-6) (?) Kruger SRM79 splinter splicer or (?) Ruthian Boulder-basher, pyrometallurgical spark-plasma sinterer
Shipyard Operations
Station Shipyard (Teorgean) Murgh Shipyards: DIY Shipyard™ series or (Rexebe) Mandotech Industries, Self Propelled Modular Transporters, Astrodynamic Transverse Stabiliser, Tension Leg Platforms, "Silastoplaston fibres", "HiFlux chromon alloys",
Equipment Price Factor (4.5 - 0.5)
Power/Energy
Energy Storage Unit (Types 1-5) (?) Germanium nanowires, anisotropic lithiation intercalator, hydrothermal heterojunctions, "energy storage cells",
Reactor (300-1500 MW) (?) gadolinium-doped liquid scintillator, (?) Wendelsteinian Torsotronic Stellerator, Sheared Flow Stabilized Z-Pincher, "solar wind converters",
TechLevel
TechLevel (2-15) "HoloFac messaging systems",
Market Operations
Market Capacity (15-120t) (Xexedian) Zorgon-Petterson: refrigeration marketing units, "CorCom trading computers",
Storage Capacity (45-200t) (Xexedian) Zorgon-Petterson: refrigeration storage units
Defensive Systems
E.C.M. System
Turret defense (5 directions) (Sector2/Esceso) SolarTech Industries: Plasma Turret Regulator Device Apparatus (cheaper in Esceso), "Phlaschgyt pulse lasers",
Enhanced Turret defense (5 directions) (Ceesxean) Tsojistic Logistics: Automatic Aggressor Analysers & Range Reducers
Security System (Fuel Reserve)
Security System (Market) "Thru-Vis cameras",
Security System (Storage) "Thru-Vis cameras",
Security System (Hangar) "Thru-Vis cameras",
Entertainment Facilities
Bar (Types 1-6) : (Xexedian) Zorgon-Petterson: refrigeration bar-keeping units; (Ensorean) Hiranic Enterprises: low-gravity foam-frothing spume-synthesisers; (Xexedian) Aegidian Woodworks: bar-counter surfaces
Restaurant (Types 1-6) (Xexedian) Zorgon-Petterson: refrigeration food-keeping units; (Xexedian) Aegidian Woodworks: table surfaces or (Biargean) RockDoctor™ TranquillityititicTableTops™, "...ian soylent green", "spam luncheon meat", for Type 6: "...ian incubation pods",
It should be mentioned that ElViejoean SwizzleSticks™ are currently all the rage on the cocktails scene...
Edited to add Turret defence details
Re-Edited to work in Random Hits list (next page in this thread)
Re: (WIP) Hermitage
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:46 pm
by phkb
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:20 pm
Life Support (Types 1-6) Bioregenerative cyanobacterial substrate synthesiser, Radioisotopic Thermoelectric Generator Cooling Manager, Water Coolant Loop System, Diluent gas eliminator
In these examples, should each level require all subcomponents? Also, are you imagining having to purchase the required components for every upgrade, or as a once-off purchase? (ie. you only need to purchase 1 Bioregenerative cyanobacterial substrate synthesiser, which is re-used in any subsequent upgrade?)