Oolite 2.0 or II

[Redspear]

Hopefully more experienced players not about a bunch of OXPs that make that a bit less tedious (OP: find for instance the "Starting choices" OXP in the OXP manager and choose the "fast track" start, which should be named "Sane start" actually)...

Sorry for the harsh tone, but this is terrible game design - unless you don't give a frack about something called "player retention". I'm talking about people like Britnoth that post nine messages here and that we never seen again.

Well, I think you've got a point there but then the first paragraph above almost justifies the state of affairs you're criticising in the second - i.e. if you don't like it, oxp it which is a great strength of oolite.

I can't remember how easy spara's start choice oxp can make things these days but I've talked about a few easier start options before (as have others) that don't throw too much cash value in the way of the player.

I could oxp the following for you if you like the sound of it?

Starting Equipment:

• Witchspace fuel injectors
• 3 Hardhead missiles with no resale value (if my plan for how to do that works...)

So from day one the player can try to run (assuming the injectors don't take a hit) and has three 'aces' to play as and when they are needed. Despite these new advantages, the start would be very reminiscent of the classic elite game - max flight performance, 3 missiles, all other aspects upgradeable.

Fast track? Not particularly - the missiles will need replacing and the injectors are relatively cheap in the long term (and will likely need repairs at some point). The player won't really be trading/pirating/hunting/mining much faster than before.

More option for the starting player? Yes - you can run with a good chance of success and you can be a real threat to a troublesome pirate pack even if your 'luck' (i.e. missiles) will run out.

Does that float your boat?

[CaptSolo]

Sorry for the harsh tone, but this is terrible game design - unless you don't give a frack about something called "player retention".

You have a right to your opinion of course but I wouldn't call it a terrible game design. I played Elite back in the day which is why Oolite was like finding an old friend.

[Cody]

assuming the injectors don't take a hit

<grins> If you're flying a stock Cobra in harm's way, and the only extra kit you have are the injectors, what are the chances?
Had it happen to me, flying as a Jameson+1 - and I'd paid for them. Heartbreaking! Give 'em a beer cooler too, as fodder!

[Redspear]

<grins> If you're flying a stock Cobra in harm's way, and the only extra kit you have are the injectors, what are the chances?

Low, I grant you but at least you have them in the first place and if getting jumped by 8 ships you might want to hit them early rather than wait for your shields to go down...
It's also a simple matter to make them indestructable and reason fuel injection as a standard feature on the mk III.

Whilst I believe it's true that Bell & Braben originally had quite a bit of kit on the cobra, only to slowly strip them away, they still decided to leave the hyperdrive on as it was a key feature of gameplay.
If the starting player should have a chance of running away then it could be argued that injectors deserve similar treatment.

Besides, if it's to be an oxp them why not?

[Disembodied]

Sorry for the harsh tone, but this is terrible game design - unless you don't give a frack about something called "player retention". I'm talking about people like Britnoth that post nine messages here and that we never seen again.

I agree, it is terrible game design. Elite got away with it in 1984, because it was 1984 and the industry was in its infancy. In the early days of cinema, people used to flock to see films of trains, because any moving picture was a wonder, but audiences became more demanding over time.

The best easy* solution I can think of is to create a paddling pool, and make all the planets in the Old Worlds much safer - while simultaneously making their trading prices much less profitable. The Co-operative is supposed to be falling apart. From the website:

The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to. The trade ships that once safely travelled between planets now have to be well armed and escorted to fend off pirate attacks, from small-time criminals desperate for their next meal, to powerful robber barons extracting tithes from everyone who passes through their space.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.

An OXP could crank down the number of pirates in the Old Worlds, making them far safer than other, similar systems elsewhere. Provide an island of low-profit relative stability, where players can learn the basics and build up some skills and a bit of equipment, before heading out into deeper waters. The one tricky part would be fiddling prices on the fly to make sure that players don't make big profits trading between the Old Worlds and outside systems: Old World prices would have to become player-centric (although that's not necessarily a bad thing: several interesting effects might fall out of making prices player-centric, e.g. being able to balance risk with reward).

* For a given value of "easy"

[Astrobe]

<sighs>

With all due respect, welcoming new players needs a bit more than "Welcome aboard" when they post a question here because... Only a tiny fraction of them ever comes here. The real Welcome is what they experience when they start their first game. If you look at open source games in general you will find very good games like Oolite, but among a pile of defunct or half-finished projects. Like commercial games but for different reasons, it's important to give a good first impression.

[Astrobe]

Well, I think you've got a point there but then the first paragraph above almost justifies the state of affairs you're criticising in the second - i.e. if you don't like it, oxp it which is a great strength of oolite.

That's not a valid answer to me.
Newbies face the difficulties of the initial game and the now 500+ (woohoo!) OXPs in the manager. The ones that would make things easier for them are probably in the middle of a long list of packages with sometimes obscure descriptions.
On the other hand, veterans know both the ropes of the game and OXPs, so they can easily customize the game.

Why are you putting all the burden on the newbies rather than the veterans? You know where I'm getting at: have a "newbies OXP" installed by default, whatever it is.

Does that float your boat?

I'm out of time, I'll answer on this later.

[Redspear]

That's not a valid answer to me.

Well, it was a hastily phrased one certainly.

Newbies face the difficulties of the initial game and the now 500+ (woohoo!) OXPs in the manager. The ones that would make things easier for them are probably in the middle of a long list of packages with sometimes obscure descriptions.
On the other hand, veterans know both the ropes of the game and OXPs, so they can easily customize the game.

All true.

The essence of the quote you took from me earlier is that oxps can help with all of these problems. It was not meant to imply that it was entirely the responsibility of a new player to either make their own oxps or to understand exactly which oxps they should need to resolve their issues. Rather, easy modding via oxp is what makes oolite stand out IMHO and as such the default game can be a bit of a blank canvas.

How much paint should already be on the canvas (and indeed where) as a suitable compromise between moddability and 'quickstart playability' is a question that I'm not sure I have a good answer for.

Why are you putting all the burden on the newbies rather than the veterans? You know where I'm getting at: have a "newbies OXP" installed by default, whatever it is.

Given that only a few hours ago I made an oxp to help with the very issues mentioned, I don't consider myself to be putting all of the burden on anyone.

[phkb]

You know where I'm getting at: have a "newbies OXP" installed by default, whatever it is.

I can see both sides here:

• The game is very unforgiving for new players, and the list of OXP's, from which some solutions could be found, is long and has no way to sort it by popularity or recommended status. It is just a massive list. Long time players will always say "Play the core game first, and add OXP's slowly", but which ones would be best to handle each unique situation? The short answer is to post a question on the forum, but is it likely all players will do that?
• The developers can't be expected to maintain and support a "basic" set of OXP's that are shipped with the game. As mentioned, the game should be considered more of a blank slate, onto which the player can bolt whatever changes they want. Plus, which OXP's should be included? Everyone will have their own take on what is "essential" for a new player.

To be frank, there is no way to come up with a default set of OXP's that will please everyone.

My suggestion is this: Instead of starting at the OXP's themselves, let's back up a step and instead come up with the most common list of questions a new player will have: eg How do I make the dog-fighting easier? How can I make docking easier? How can I improve the look of the game? How can I make the spacial distances more realistic? Once we have a list of questions, then players can submit answers to those questions, by suggesting a particular OXP and why/how it meets that need. Also, details of why some players don't like the OXP should be included. This isn't a sales pitch, but a realistic assessment of the OXP, what it does, how it does it, and the impacts it will have on the rest of the game. Pros and cons. For instance, for "randomshipnames", it could say "This OXP adds some flavour to all the ships in the Ooniverse by giving each one a randomly generated name. However, some players have found the randomness a bit too random as some extremely odd sounding names can be generated."

OXP suggestions should be targeted at a particular question, and there could be multiple suggestions per question.

Once answers have been submitted then it can be packaged up into a "What do I do with all these OXP's" document that can be included in the main distribution. Now the only thing being maintained by the developers is a text document, that can include all the disclaimers that say the OXP's listed below are not endorsed in any way by the developers, that this list should instead be considered as a player-to-player document, and there are hundreds more OXP's that are worth checking out. The document could also be added to the Wiki.

I think this goes some way to helping solve the new player problem, giving them an easy path into using OXP's, while removing the burden of having to support a basic set of OXP's from the developers.

It's a suggestion, anyway.

[Cody]

Thing is, how many new players would read it? It's surprising how many aren't even aware of the Oolite reference sheet.

[CaptSolo]

On the other hand, veterans know both the ropes of the game and OXPs, so they can easily customize the game.

If you mean by customize to make the game less difficult, then I would have to add that some of us veterans actually prefer to make it harder. At one point I customized the game so all NPC's came equipped with aft lasers. It just seemed unfair that a fleeing pirate couldn't defend itself other than firing off a missile.

[phkb]

Thing is, how many new players would read it?

Granted there will always be players who won't see it. But at least it can be a readily available resource we can point them to.

[Cody]

<nods>


I suppose adding an Easy Mode alongside Strict and Normal would be a massive amount of work (if it was even desirable).

[Duggan]

What I do when I come across a game with a "terrible design" is ..Not play it...This practice seems to have worked for me and it has the added bonus of not openly taking a pot shot at designers and developers who work bloody hard to continually improve and refine their product ....Just thought I'd mention it

[Disembodied]

Don't get me wrong: Elite and - even more so - Oolite are brilliant games. But the punishingly difficult initial stages of the game as it currently stands is one specific instance of bad design, especially in a modern game. (Elite had a couple of other bits of bad design: witchspace malfunctions which could leave you dead in space with no hope of escape, even if you beat the bugs, and the "Pirates have boarded your ship. They show no mercy …" random death from nowhere spring to mind: both of these have been either smoothed out or got rid of entirely from Oolite.)

The very difficult initial stage of the game is something I, personally, am happy to overlook - and even to enjoy, because I have years of experience of playing the game and am a pretty decent pilot, all things considered. But it would be a big improvement if (in a putative Oolite 2.0, say) the game allowed brand-new players, who have never played the game before, to have a chance of getting to make a few cheap and easy cargo runs without being destroyed on a regular basis. The pirate kibble tactic - being able to chuck a few canisters out and escape - is a major step forward in correcting this flaw in the original game, but still this particular bump remains to be ironed out.