Oolite Bulletins

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:27 am

And for some perspective here: I tried playing Oolite a long while back, maybe 1.75, whatever version was right before the expansion manager got put in.

I lasted 10 minutes, and quit.

When I started again just a couple months ago, the expansion manager was there, and I went absolutely nuts. It was the OXPs that got me hooked. So I worry about relying on them to hook other players. Not everyone starts with 400. Not everyone even starts with 1.

Would you mind elaborating on that for me? I'm a new old player, or an old new player whatever.. What is the thing about the expansions manager that is a dealbreaker? There is so much new stuff for me to discover that I've only so far grazed by it. It seemed a place to tweak or switch modes for OXPs, but I don't feel I've had any good reason to flick all the switches yet.

Old Murgh wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:44 pm

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:27 am

And for some perspective here: I tried playing Oolite a long while back, maybe 1.75, whatever version was right before the expansion manager got put in.

I lasted 10 minutes, and quit.

When I started again just a couple months ago, the expansion manager was there, and I went absolutely nuts. It was the OXPs that got me hooked. So I worry about relying on them to hook other players. Not everyone starts with 400. Not everyone even starts with 1.

Would you mind elaborating on that for me? I'm a new old player, or an old new player whatever.. What is the thing about the expansions manager that is a dealbreaker? There is so much new stuff for me to discover that I've only so far grazed by it. It seemed a place to tweak or switch modes for OXPs, but I don't feel I've had any good reason to flick all the switches yet.

More detail here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yngSxZX ... NV&index=9

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:56 pm

Old Murgh wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:44 pm

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:27 am

And for some perspective here: I tried playing Oolite a long while back, maybe 1.75, whatever version was right before the expansion manager got put

Would you mind elaborating on that for me?

More detail here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yngSxZX ... NV&index=9

Ah sorry. Of course you wrote clearly so I could understand "manage Expansion Packs", and I got it into my head I was missing something wonderful about the config for addOns feature. Of course I understand. Avert your eyes, you didn't see my comment above.

I am rather old, you understand.

Old Murgh wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:44 pm

Would you mind elaborating on that for me? I'm a new old player, or an old new player whatever.. What is the thing about the expansions manager that is a dealbreaker? There is so much new stuff for me to discover that I've only so far grazed by it. It seemed a place to tweak or switch modes for OXPs, but I don't feel I've had any good reason to flick all the switches yet.

Sorry, I may not have been clear. I think the expansion manager is GREAT. My criticism is that I worry that we (the player base) rely on the expansion manager and its OXPs as a way to get a game that is reasonably acceptable to play in 2021. Oolite 1.90 without any OXPs would be absolutely mind-blowing... in 1986. But there are a fair number of quality-of-life and UX/UI features that any game released *today* absolutely *needs* in order to be taken seriously.

My view is that we should not rely on OXPs to provide those features. They need to be part of the base game, so that new players who encounter Oolite for the first time don't have to go to the expansion manager right away to get a decent experience.

The expansion manager is wonderful, but it (read: the OXPs to which it provides access) should not be relied upon to solve UX issues in the base game.

Edit: I saw your clarification, so never mind me! Though I think my reply here is the best articulation of my view.

To add an example that just now came to mind.

Consider Dwarf Fortress.

I don't know if anyone here has played it, or even knows about it, so perhaps my example is way too obscure, but... here we go, anyway, for posterity.

Dwarf Fortress is one of the most obscure, complicated, frustrating, bizarre, "impossible" to learn games that has ever been made. The interface is opaque. It makes absolutely no sense to a new player, and doesn't have hands to hold a new player's hand with, even if it wanted to, which it doesn't.

Enter the Lazy Newb Pack. The LNP was put together by people who are not the devs of DF, as a way to make on-boarding the game even marginally easier, by providing easy access to human-interpretable tilesets and other features that should be in the base game but are not.

No one, and I mean absolutely *NO ONE*, in the DF community is insane enough to suggest that new players just download DF and try it out. They always tell people to download the LNP package (which includes DF) to start. Always. For all practical purposes, vanilla DF does not exist as far as new players are concerned.

And now, the DF devs are making a Steam version of the game, which will have tilesets and added features and basically a whole host of the things that the LNP provides as part of the base game, so that when newbie Steam players play the game they will not find their brains leaking from their ears.

DF = Oolite 1.90
LNP = Expansion Manager + OXPs
DF on Steam = .....?

My fill-in-the-blank would be Oolite 2.0.

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:22 pm

My view is that we should not rely on OXPs to provide those features. They need to be part of the base game, so that new players who encounter Oolite for the first time don't have to go to the expansion manager right away to get a decent experience.

If you were project lead, which OXPs would you include in the base game? All of them? Or a selection?

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:30 pm

Dwarf Fortress is one of the most obscure, complicated, frustrating, bizarre, "impossible" to learn games that has ever been made. The interface is opaque. It makes absolutely no sense to a new player, and doesn't have hands to hold a new player's hand with, even if it wanted to, which it doesn't.

Is that true of Oolite though?

Having played the original elite way back when I'm perhaps not best placed to answer that question myself but...
with Oolite one tutorial and one short .pdf later and I'd have thought it's at least not opaque. You need a leaflet, not a manual (even though the origianl shipped with one).

The difficulty is high for the complete beginner however (IMHO) and that isn't easily addressed by any amount of starting cash.

Oolite inherits a number of, let's call them design quirks, which it then compounds with a few new ones. The whole thing is gloriously tweakable however and so the 'blank canvas' is part of the charm.

That said, there are things that I think were tolerated in the original release (of Oolite and maybe Elite as well) that really could be made much more palateable for both the beginner and the long-term player. I think it's much easier for an oxp to address one of those player types rather than both as should be the case with good design (again, IMHO).

In short, I think it's easier to paint yourself into a corner with most oxps rather than to make the game more approachable.
This issue keeps coming up however suggesting that the current status quo is sub-optimal.

Addendum:

As an example I'll use one of my own oxps that's listed in my sig: indestructable injectors.

Why did I make it? To solve the problem of the beginner regularly needing to run yet being unable to do so.
Why do I like it? It makes the game more playable early on and no less so late game.
What has been the criticism? It's a giveaway of one of the most useful pieces of equipment.
What could/should I do to address the criticism? Tell them all to go f... Maybe reduce the efficiency, produce an upgrade, price it (upgrade) at least 600 Cr, require that for full (sans oxp) benefit of the injectors.

Personally, I don't think it influences the middle to late game as much as some seem to think but I do recognise that the balance is easily tipped.

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:22 pm

My view is that we should not rely on OXPs to provide those features. They need to be part of the base game, so that new players who encounter Oolite for the first time don't have to go to the expansion manager right away to get a decent experience.

The expansion manager is wonderful, but it (read: the OXPs to which it provides access) should not be relied upon to solve UX issues in the base game.

I see your point I think, but don't you think there is also value to the journey of the way you discover and shape the game to your liking? Giles was clear from the very beginning in 2004 that he wanted game expansions to be a big part of the Oolite experience, and he wanted it to be easy to add, even easy to make for non-tech savvy people. But he wanted the starting blank canvas to be a time capsule of something special from the mid80s. Maybe a museum experience to young people at the outset, but with so many possibilities to play-doh shape the antiquities.

With the vast number of OXPs now surely some must be by young people who didn't come from a place of nostalgia but still had their imaginations captured?

Redspear wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:55 pm

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:30 pm

Dwarf Fortress is one of the most obscure, complicated, frustrating, bizarre, "impossible" to learn games that has ever been made. The interface is opaque. It makes absolutely no sense to a new player, and doesn't have hands to hold a new player's hand with, even if it wanted to, which it doesn't.

Is that true of Oolite though?

Having played the original elite way back when I'm perhaps not best placed to answer that question myself but...
with Oolite one tutorial and one short .pdf later and I'd have thought it's at least not opaque. You need a leaflet, not a manual (even though the origianl shipped with one).

The difficulty is high for the complete beginner however (IMHO) and that isn't easily addressed by any amount of starting cash.

Oolite inherits a number of, let's call them design quirks, which it then compounds with a few new ones. The whole thing is gloriously tweakable however and so the 'blank canvas' is part of the charm.

That said, there are things that I think were tolerated in the original release (of Oolite and maybe Elite as well) that really could be made much more palateable for both the beginner and the long-term player. I think it's much easier for an oxp to address one of those player types rather than both as should be the case with good design (again, IMHO).

In short, I think it's easier to paint yourself into a corner with most oxps rather than to make the game more approachable.
This issue keeps coming up however suggesting that the current status quo is sub-optimal.

We have a strict game which approximates the Classic Elite. I would keep it as it is.
The main game could come with several dozen oxp's preloaded.
I would suggest these:

Basic information for new players
Ship's Library (with ships manual)
XenonUI (handy guide to the buttons on your astrogation console)
Technical Reference Library identifies ships when you target them (just ships) - might need tweaking
GalCop Galactic Registry - guide to the galaxy you are in
Market Observer - necessary statistics for analysing the F8 markets page (with Market Ads at the bottom - keep these, good for lore)
Vimana HUD (flashes warnings for High Temperature, Low Altitude, Low Energy & Low Shields)
+Galactic Almanac when OXZ'ded

Background Effects
BGS
Communications Pack A
Death Comms
Randomshipnames OXP
Famous Planets

Ambience
Solar Flares (improve it first?)
System Features: Rings (improve it first?)
System Features: Sunspots
One of the sun distancing oxp's from here (not Strangers World - keep the SW suite for more experienced players).

Dockables
Lave Academy: training courses in combat, docking & ship-handling!
Superhub: adds variety - and an easy dock
Torus station: adds variety
Z-GrOovY Small System Stations: adds variety (and needs Griff Station Bundle)
Traffic Lights OXP helps docking - and puts a time-limit on the wait
These add specific stations to specific types of systems (good variety), help docking more and provide training at Lave - and a reason to go back there!

Basic Improvements
Equipment 'Sell Item' Color: helps make sense of long lists of F3 shipyard outfitting options
LogEvents: vital when needing help
Oolite v1.88 Base Shipset Normal and Specular/Gloss Maps
Commies
Dictators OXP
Feudal States
Anarchies
Illegal Goods Tweak

Extra Equipment
Email System: record of purchases, kills, etc.
Fast Target Selector OXP: helps target your missiles
Fuel Tank: an emergency fuel tank in case of need (many others also available)
Police IFF Scanner Upgrade: advance warning about (some) pirates
Repair Bots: fixes broken equipment in flight
SniperLock: for targeting lasers - vital if your aim is as lousy as mine!
Welcome Mat: warning if the system is currently pirate or Thargoid infested!

Also just for the Easy Start
Paddling Pool - and we can then move the Easy Start back to Lave - and get to use the Lave Academy...

I should point out that Redspear has been beavering away creating OXP's specifically addressing beginners issues. There should be a bunch of those included with the Easy Start.

Cody wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:37 pm

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:22 pm

My view is that we should not rely on OXPs to provide those features. They need to be part of the base game, so that new players who encounter Oolite for the first time don't have to go to the expansion manager right away to get a decent experience.

If you were project lead, which OXPs would you include in the base game? All of them? Or a selection?

Essentially as I wrote in an early comment, I would fold in OXPs that do the following:

1) Add sound to the environment as found in BGS
2) Add backdrops to the station interfaces as found in XenonUI
3) Add more detail to the commodity screen to show galactic average diff and average price paid for goods in cargo
4) (Maybe - this one I could go either way) Recalculate stellar body distances and reduce the relative size of the stars to give the appearance of even greater distance (basically, do the final scene in Casablanca, but with stars instead of airplanes)

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:34 pm

Is that true of Oolite though?

It's more true than it isn't, I believe. Accounting for the hyperbole of my assessment of DF, yeah, Oolite is not new-player-friendly.

We have a strict game which approximates the Classic Elite. I would keep it as it is.

My argument has been that I think it's time for Oolite to move beyond that design goal. Let 1.90 be the final Oolite-is-Elite; let 2.0 be Oolite-is-Oolite.

The main game could come with several dozen oxp's preloaded.

That is also a valid option - preloaded, but removable for people who want the Classic Experience. However, I strongly suggest that these OXPs should be rewritten/reworked to be separated from the licenses that attach to them currently, so that future devs are not tied down by multiple licenses on the base delivered game.

I like your list, it's even more ambitious than mine.

One possibly even MORE controversial take is that I think the "Modern Start" OXP should also be folded in, and those starts should be renamed to be the basic starts - not labeled "modern." And the current basic starts should be labeled "Classic."

Ain't nobody got time for not having injectors in the beginning.

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:43 pm

Ain't nobody got time for not having injectors in the beginning.

Aah... not quite true, methinks...

Old Murgh wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:16 pm

But (Giles) wanted the starting blank canvas to be a time capsule of something special from the mid80s. Maybe a museum experience to young people at the outset, but with so many possibilities to play-doh shape the antiquities.

I really, truly, deeply understand the original design goal. I don't reject it at all. But for that, we have Oolite 1.90.

I now feel that an excellent compromise suggestion from Cholmondely, which actually fits my Dwarf Fortress comparison really well, could be the way to go: Oolite could come pre-loaded with a set of QoL expansions that could be removed by a player wanting a Classic experience.

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:22 am

So I'll posit my own question. And I realize that it's an "unfair" question that deliberately ignores both the original intent of the game and the long history of its development to this point.

If Oolite were dropped into Early Access today, on Steam, in its current form, what would be the top 5 complaints by new players who have never experienced this game or its predecessors?

Here's my list:

1) Not enough sound.
2) The interfaces are clunky.
3) The trading system requires pen-and-paper to use effectively.
4) The suns are too close/too big.
5) If it's going to take this much time to get from A to B, there needs to be a speed toggle. <- this only matters until you get injectors, but imagine being a new player without them, and having to go get them.

Unfair maybe but still relevant...

1 & 2 used to be a matter of installing BGS.oxp but as it became more elaborsate, there emerged both alternatives and new design issues.

It's kinda like decorating a room, only to have to keep changing what you do with the room (varied player preference and customisation).
Customisation and neat and tidy don't easily sit together unfortunately. Oolite is a car with most of the fittings and panneling removed in order for it to be easier to tinker with.

Old Murgh wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:16 pm

But he wanted the starting blank canvas to be a time capsule of something special from the mid80s. Maybe a museum experience to young people at the outset, but with so many possibilities to play-doh shape the antiquities.

That's the charm, right there...

As for the other #

3) It's got issues for sure but food/liquor/furs (depending on finances) or alloys/machinery/computers (same reason) just requires a starting hint I think.
4) One of the reasons I started the rescaling experiment. Long, long thread but a successful (or at the very least functional) conclusion.
5) The only oxps I have in my sig are to address this issue. The other ones I made to help are power to engines and traffic redistributer.The very fact I have made 4 different oxps to essentially address the same issue (and can all be used alongside each other) perhaps highlights the extent to which I agree with you on this one.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:34 pm

I would suggest these:

And this is where folks start to want different things...

I didn't see any bad suggestions in there (I even wrote one of them) but it's hard to recommend any of them as suitable for everyone.

Even randomshipnames (sorry Cody), great as it is, isn't for everyone.