Oolite Bulletins

Scouseair wrote:

I have to agree. I am interested in trading AND combat and feel that the combat balance has been skewed too far in favour of the pirates in 1.80. I would hate to start afresh. The singles run away when you fire in their general direction, if it's a duo the other runs when you kill the first. 4 or more and you're dead within seconds of them starting to fire. And that's in a Python ET special with an iron ass. In 1.77 they increased the bad guys weapon power to match the player but said, "don't worry....we've reduced their accuracy so it'll even out". In 1.80 they upped the accuracy and it's taken out fighting groups altogether. Unless you follow the advice to "run away and use your rear lasers". Surely that's not the way the game is meant to be played. Not every fight. I've had some of my best moments in Oolite taking on groups of 4+, sniping one, maybe two on the way in, maybe get a third with the rear laser after the merge, then into the dogfighting, using shields and lasers tactically and coming out the other side with a surge of euphoria. That playstyle is gone with 1.80. It may not be "realistic"[sic], but it is FUN. We are meant to be the hero, fighting impossible odds, better than anyone else. Remember, we are just one ship, the pirates fight in groups. We have to have the advantage.

Having started a Jameson in 1.77, and found it hugely hard to survive a basic trade run between stable systems, and then started a Jameson in 1.80, and managed to reach Competent without dying once, I think 1.80 is much more balanced, and much easier to get started (both times I was using a vanilla setup, with eye-candy OXPs only). Being a Jameson in 1.77 was one skin-of-the-teeth escape after another, interspersed with being blown up, regularly, in what should have been safe or very safe systems. The changes to pirate activity and behaviour in 1.80 have been, in my opinion, a huge improvement.

Flying a Python ET Special, you obviously have some OXP ships in there. Might this be the source of the problem? If you have OXP ships designed to be worthwhile opponents in 1.77, and now they're using 1.80 AIs, then they will be much more dangerous. I don't think we can fairly compare "1.77 with 1.77-grade OXPs" to "1.80 with 1.77-grade OXPs": I think we have to make the core game work well, and then OXPs can be altered to suit.

I love the behavioural AI changes that let players buy off pirates: that is, I think, the single best improvement to the game in years. A beginner can survive a hostile encounter, with nothing more than a bruised ego and a desire to get their own back, one day. And pirates fleeing when large squads of Vipers show up: again, great. And pirates, occasionally, ignoring the player as not worth the bother, also great. It really sets the game on a level above the "here comes another wave of drones!"

I can see, though, that in some respects, there is maybe a tendency to make the pirates too "practical" - to attack with heavy odds in their favour, and to retreat in good order when things are looking just a little bit tough. This does encourage long-range defensive sniping as the player's best tactic, and takes some of the dogfight juice out of the game.

Having played (in 1.77) with Cim's Skilled NPCs OXP, I have to say that gave me the best dogfights. I would see a strong case for fewer pirates, with better flying/dodging skills, resulting in longer, and more up-close-and-personal duels. I don't think the Skilled NPCs code could be dropped in to trunk unmodified; NPC accuracy and damage done might have to be reduced. The main purpose would be to make the pirates into more challenging targets, allowing the player to do the fancy flying to keep them in their sights. NPCs should fire back, of course, but balance would be key. Generally, though, what really fries the player is multiple incoming fire: six hostiles is very tough to deal with, up close or otherwise, and large pirate packs - if given improved flying skills - would have to be made rarer.

In summary, though, I'd make a case for jinkier NPCs, in smaller groups, for longer-lasting, more intense, and usually more close-range dogfights. Pirates could be encountered often singly (perhaps as Cobra I, Cobra III, Fer-de-Lance, or Moray); in twos (one of the single-types plus a Sidewinder, Krait, Mamba or - if you're unlucky - Asp sidekick); occasionally in a dangerous four-pack of Python/Boa and some fighter-types; and rarely in a heavy group that needs real care, skill, attention, guts, phlegm, grit, cojones and anything else you might happen to have lying around.

<nods at Big D>

I think that's a great summation from Disembodied. In particular:

Disembodied wrote:

I can see, though, that in some respects, there is maybe a tendency to make the pirates too "practical" - to attack with heavy odds in their favour, and to retreat in good order when things are looking just a little bit tough. This does encourage long-range defensive sniping as the player's best tactic, and takes some of the dogfight juice out of the game.

I actually welcome the prospect of some tougher systems to negotiate, but I think the practical outcome at the moment is a too-sharp delineation between groups of up to four pirates who don't want to cross me, and groups of fix or six who do - sometimes simultaneously.

The two things I miss as a result are, close-quarters combat, and the opportunity to sometimes put my side lasers to good use. At 1.77 there was a window of opportunity while attackers closed in to line up a few shots from port or starboard, but that's a fatal tactic at 1.80.

One of the reasons I installed OXP ships in 1.80 was that I love variety in my Ooniverse, I don't recall off hand a warning in the patch notes not to use any non-core ships. The other was that I was flying an OXP ship. It seems pretty harsh to trade back down to a cobra to play 1.80. Staer9's OXP is pretty well balanced apart from the cat and, now it's role has been changed from scared scavenger to full on pirate muscle, the iguana. I think a lot of the problems with OXP ships could be cured by reducing the accuracy back to 1.77 levels.

I agree that it was much harder starting out in 1.77 compared to 1.76 (my first version). I haven't started a new commander in 1.80 yet so can't comment, but I imagine it's pretty hard to get kills when a single pirate runs away after you fire and miss him. Surely they should only run after taking a few hit's first and then realizing that you're too much for them. I think something could be tweaked there. It is a one on one after all.

I must admit to not being a fan of the "safer systems being safer and the dangerous systems being more dangerous" change. I preferred the more gradual difficulty curve. Sometimes you have to travel through dangerous systems, especially people who like the parcel/passenger/cargo contract missions. Or who just like to explore. A lot of the crux systems on the spacelanes are dangerous systems you can't avoid, and worse a lot of them are long jumps leaving you with little fuel for your injectors. I'm currently working on the explorers club OXP, trading my way through galaxy 4 and on the short range chart there are 5 anarchies and 3 multi-governments and I am finding them plenty tough enough. Sure you get the odd quiet one, but mostly it's a constant fight. Also I welcome the odd fight in the safe systems to break up the long trip to the station with all the extra traders. It's extremely rare to meet a large group in a corporate state or democracy. Is it just me or is it impossible to pass anything the same speed as you in 1.80 without injectors? Before you could always crawl past them whatever their top speed.

I heartily encourage anything to increase the dogfighting. I love that part of combat the most. But in 1.80 it's rare to get close enough to a group to do so.

Thanks for listening

Scouseair wrote:

I heartily encourage anything to increase the dogfighting. I love that part of combat the most. But in 1.80 it's rare to get close enough to a group to do so.

I nearly always fight at close-quarters, and a quick burst of the injectors gets me there. Fuel is the key - 'twere ever thus!

Wasn't it that great Scottish Brummie Led Zeppelin bassist who commanded America's fleets during the rebellion who once said

"I wish to have no connection to any ship which does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harms way"

Scouseair wrote:

One of the reasons I installed OXP ships in 1.80 was that I love variety in my Ooniverse, I don't recall off hand a warning in the patch notes not to use any non-core ships.

That would be because there are no warnings.. A lot of these issues with older OXP ships have only become apparent due to feedback received over the few weeks since 1.80 was released. Issuing warnings in a way that they'd actually be noticed is not a simple task, either.

Scouseair wrote:

I think a lot of the problems with OXP ships could be cured by reducing the accuracy back to 1.77 levels.

I'd rather see it addressed by fixing the OXP ships, instead of going back to the old accuracy situation. Something that might be worthwhile considering, is some kind of OXP that did a blanket 'tone-down' of all OXP ships that didn't have a "1.80 compatibility" rating applied to them.

Scouseair wrote:

I must admit to not being a fan of the "safer systems being safer and the dangerous systems being more dangerous" change. I preferred the more gradual difficulty curve.

The thing is, there was no "more gradual difficulty curve".. there was practically nothing to distinguish the "safe" and "medium" systems from one another. The only real distinction was when you got to the "dangerous" end of the scale.

Scouseair wrote:

A lot of the crux systems on the spacelanes are dangerous systems you can't avoid, and worse a lot of them are long jumps leaving you with little fuel for your injectors.

Well, there are ways to deal with that.. not least being a wormhole scanner and a little patience.

Scouseair wrote:

I'm currently working on the explorers club OXP, trading my way through galaxy 4 and on the short range chart there are 5 anarchies and 3 multi-governments and I am finding them plenty tough enough. Sure you get the odd quiet one, but mostly it's a constant fight.

Well, as this chart from the Wiki shows, G4 is a particularly tough nut to crack.. there's only four government types in the entire chart, and the "medium" and "dangerous" systems heavily outnumber the "safe" ones.

Diziet Sma wrote:

Well, as this chart from the Wiki shows, G4 is a particularly tough nut to crack.. there's only four government types in the entire chart, and the "medium" and "dangerous" systems heavily outnumber the "safe" ones.

*blinks* for a randomly generated chart, That distribution looks very non-random..


- Neelix

Neelix wrote:

*blinks* for a randomly generated chart, That distribution looks very non-random..

Well, don't forget.. B&B generated some hundreds of charts, and then picked the eight they liked best.. (and I wouldn't put it past them, given they invented the algorithm that generated the charts, to have come up with a seed to intentionally generate a chart like G4..)

Diziet Sma wrote:

Scouseair wrote:

I think a lot of the problems with OXP ships could be cured by reducing the accuracy back to 1.77 levels.

I'd rather see it addressed by fixing the OXP ships, instead of going back to the old accuracy situation. Something that might be worthwhile considering, is some kind of OXP that did a blanket 'tone-down' of all OXP ships that didn't have a "1.80 compatibility" rating applied to them.

Definitely. The developers have to work on the core game. A lot of OXP ships tend towards the "I'm quite hard, me" end of the spectrum, because in general, prior to the AI upgrades, the core ships were rather easy opponents once players had some decent equipment under them. Following the AI changes, these older OXP ships are not only hard, but smart. It's an unintended consequence, but it's the OXPs that should be fixed, not the core game.

NPC accuracy isn't the only thing that's changed. NPC lasers overheat, now, and this is noticeable. You can use this to your advantage: if you dodge and weave until their rate of fire tails off, then you can take them down when they can't fire back. So although the NPCs are often better shots than they used to be (and they used to be terrible shots), their capacity to keep on firing indefinitely has disappeared. This is another very welcome improvement.

The 1.80 core ships are, by and large, decent opponents. Kills are not difficult to make, but they're not as crazily easy as they used to be, and I haven't felt the need to install harder opponents. My main criticism is that they still have a tendency to fly straight down a military laser, and this, combined with the often heavy odds against a player, leads to long-range, often rear-gun, defensive tactics. Especially now that the core ships have been Griffified, that's a shame, as I don't seem to get the same closeup views so much as before. Better AI pilots, who dodge more, might go a long way to rectifying this, but the NPCs' odds calculations would need to change, and there would need to be fewer large packs. It's the multiple incoming fire that really makes things hard - these are the sorts of fights the player should feel no shame in running away from, and fighting defensively. But I'd be in favour of keeping these rare, and giving the player more, and more close-up and satisfying, single-ship duels against pilots who can dodge and weave a bit, too.

I have to admit it had been so long since I'd been in G4 that I'd totally forgotten about there being only 4 government types.

I'm really surprised to hear there was no difficulty curve in the government types. It sure feels like there is one. I guess we live and learn.

I was sure I read in the 1.77 or 1.77.1 patch notes that it had introduced enemy laser temps for the first time to offset the increase in NPC weapon power, so that again surprises me. They do seem to fire a burst then go to overheated mode. Was it an illusion of programming or my imagination?

I like the idea of a blanket tone down for OXP ships, especially as not all OXP writers are still active. Maybe reducing all non-big ships to a single front laser would help.

Overall I love the rest of what has been done to 1.80...the coms chatter, the MFDs, etc. And the new chart from the nightly builds sounds great. It would be a shame for me to be left behind in 1.77. Maybe I should do a separate save, trade down to a cobra, remove OXP ships and try again in 1.80.

I have to agree with Disembodied, though. I would rather see smaller groups and more dogfighting than waves of large groups. It is the initial long range concentration of fire from these groups that ruins the combat....and kills you.

Thanks for the input and advice guys. I really love this game.

Scouseair wrote:

Maybe I should do a separate save, trade down to a cobra, remove OXP ships and try again in 1.80.

Excellent idea - the core game (plus eye-candy, perhaps) has a lot to offer.

Scouseair wrote:

I was sure I read in the 1.77 or 1.77.1 patch notes that it had introduced enemy laser temps for the first time to offset the increase in NPC weapon power, so that again surprises me.

That's about right - the lasers were changed to match the player spec for the same weapons, gaining both the advantages and disadvantages of that change.

Previously the NPC pulse laser was better than the player pulse laser, and the NPC beam laser was worse than the player beam laser ... but due to an oddity of the old NPC "overheating" code, actually slightly better than the NPC military laser. (NPC lasers didn't overheat in 1.76, but they would randomly cut out for 10-20 seconds)

Scouseair wrote:

I have to agree with Disembodied, though. I would rather see smaller groups and more dogfighting than waves of large groups. It is the initial long range concentration of fire from these groups that ruins the combat....and kills you.

As with many of our problems, this one can mostly be blamed on progress in monitor technology.

The BBC B had an effective 320x256 resolution. This meant that ships disappeared into sub-pixel tinyness at a fairly short distance from you. As a result of this, the combat and scanner ranges in Elite were all in practice a lot shorter. In Oolite, this would translate to a range of ~5km for the beam and pulse lasers, ~10km for the military laser, and ~9km for the scanner radius ... but now we have medium- and high-resolution monitors, that would mean that your scanner was considerably worse at finding ships than your eyes were (which would be a bit odd, I think) and that ships which were still really big visually were actually out of laser range. You'd all be going "Why won't my scanner lock on? It's right there!"

(The same effect is part of the reason the space lane takes so much longer to traverse, and the stations seem so off-scale compared with their planets)

As a result, gameplay which worked really well in Elite doesn't work here, at least not in the same way. I think this is an area where the inspiration from Elite has to be "space combat is fun" rather than "space combat with these parameters is fun". I'm working on a set of proposals for combat rebalancing, some of them quite radical (indeed, some of them I don't necessarily agree with myself), at the moment.

One thing that would be useful would be if everyone who can spare an hour (or perhaps less) for testing - whether you're still trying to shift that Harmless rating or you've been Elite for so long you're double Elite - could participate in the combat scenario survey. At the moment, I know how well I can fight; I know that I'm neither the best nor the worst pilot out there ... but I don't have much data on what the skill range actually is.

That combat scenario: you want it done in 1.80 without OXP/Zs such as Skilled NPCs, or does it make no difference?

It shouldn't make any difference. Combat simulator sets up the scenario so that other OXPs shouldn't interfere (Skilled NPCs won't, especially not the current version), and nightly builds are currently similar enough to 1.80 in the areas that matter.