Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death knells

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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by Wildeblood »

Disembodied wrote:
Wildeblood wrote:
But why be generous and start with an Adder? If you really believed in this start at the bottom idea, you'd start with a Worm.
Nope. The Adder is the smallest cargo-carrying, hyperspace-capable core ship. You're playing a spacefaring trader. Therefore, you need a spacefaring trading ship.
Yeah, why start with a hyperspace capable ship? It'd be like Eldon said there, seek out some rock-hermits to trade with. The game could contrive to always have rock hermits in the starting system until the player had enough money to buy an Adder, then do the opposite - never any hermits - to force the player to move up to level two: interstellar trade.

I don't agree with this levels ladder idea, but I'm not being facetious here, either. If you want to do an Adder start (or worse), go ahead. It's your game. But I don't think you've made the case that it's the right way to start, and the game should be altered to make it the only way to start.
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by Capt. Murphy »

Disembodied wrote:
Are there other open-ended games out there which allow players to start off from radically different optional starting points?
Software Refinary's Hardwar has a choice of 6 starting options - 3 with same basic ship but different starting equipment tailored to a different start 'profession', and 3 slightly higher up the upgrade ladder but with downsides such as an existing criminal record, enemies already after you etc.

I think it would work fine in Oolite as long as their is a bit of balance - eg. extra cash if you start with an adder, and as some others have said a cheaper upgrade path to a better ship. I don't see any problem with starting with an non-hyperspace capable ship either as one of the options - intra-stellar trade, mining, hitch hiking on NPC wormholes to trade and escort type contracts as part of the core game could all be viable start up professions as long as you can feasibly make enough cash to upgrade to a hyperspace capable ship within a reasonable amount of game time.
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by Disembodied »

Wildeblood wrote:
Yeah, why start with a hyperspace capable ship? It'd be like Eldon said there, seek out some rock-hermits to trade with. The game could contrive to always have rock hermits in the starting system until the player had enough money to buy an Adder, then do the opposite - never any hermits - to force the player to move up to level two: interstellar trade.
Because – in my opinion – a core part of the game is the charm and excitement of travelling to other star systems. In any case, a Worm also lacks a cargo bay. It's a passenger shuttle. You could fiddle things so that the starting system was different from all the others (i.e. containing numerous Hermits), then magic the Hermits away again after a certain amount of time to "force" players into moving on, but that seems a clumsy – and prescriptive – way to do things.

I don't want to force the player to do anything. I just think that – since we can, unlike in Elite, change ships – it would be better if beginners began at (what seems to me to be) a sensible beginning. I think the Adder – the smallest, core game, interstellar trading vessel – is a sensible beginning point for an interstellar trader.
Wildeblood wrote:
I don't agree with this levels ladder idea, but I'm not being facetious here, either. If you want to do an Adder start (or worse), go ahead. It's your game. But I don't think you've made the case that it's the right way to start, and the game should be altered to make it the only way to start.
Here's one I made earlier.

It could, hypothetically, be a way of making the game better. It would take an enormous amount of work, and I doubt very much that the devs would consider it worthwhile. The fact that this thread got split off from the Looking Ahead thread a while back is a bit of a clue ...
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by Disembodied »

Capt. Murphy wrote:
Software Refinary's Hardwar has a choice of 6 starting options - 3 with same basic ship but different starting equipment tailored to a different start 'profession', and 3 slightly higher up the upgrade ladder but with downsides such as an existing criminal record, enemies already after you etc.

I think it would work fine in Oolite as long as their is a bit of balance - eg. extra cash if you start with an adder, and as some others have said a cheaper upgrade path to a better ship. I don't see any problem with starting with an non-hyperspace capable ship either as one of the options - intra-stellar trade, mining, hitch hiking on NPC wormholes to trade and escort type contracts as part of the core game could all be viable start up professions as long as you can feasibly make enough cash to upgrade to a hyperspace capable ship within a reasonable amount of game time.
OK, that's interesting ... you start at the beginning of various "career paths" (which – I assume – you can chop and change once you're on them). That might be achievable. It would probably take a lot more work to get the balances right, but yeah, I could see players starting off down maybe the trading route or the combat route, say, and beginning in either an Adder or a Mamba/Sidewinder (I still think trapping beginners into one star system would be a mistake, though: you'd want them to enjoy a sense of freedom, even if there are places they can't go because if they tried they'd get their behind handed to them on a plate). Even more hypothetical work piled on top of the first lot of hypothetical work, though! :D
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by DaddyHoggy »

The Mamba/Krait option would work if you were offered Escort missions to known systems.

"Escort Python Monty Don to Riedquat with three other ships - pay on arrival (of Python) at Riedquat station: 75Cr"
"Escort Anaconda Aunt Annie to Diso as single escort - pay on arrival (of Anaconda) at Diso Station: 20Cr"

etc...
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by another_commander »

Why don't you guys just try it? It is perfectly possible to construct save games that do exactly what you are discussing. Someone could package in a zip file a few start up savegames and pass on for others to try. We can very easily and quickly find out which of these options are feasible and which should be revised or discarded as non-practical. No need to wait for Oolite 2 for that.
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by DaddyHoggy »

another_commander wrote:
Why don't you guys just try it? It is perfectly possible to construct save games that do exactly what you are discussing. Someone could package in a zip file a few start up savegames and pass on for others to try. We can very easily and quickly find out which of these options are feasible and which should be revised or discarded as non-practical. No need to wait for Oolite 2 for that.
But that would leave no room for pointless speculation! Come on A_C, you're not playing the game... :roll: :wink:
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by Disembodied »

another_commander wrote:
Why don't you guys just try it? It is perfectly possible to construct save games that do exactly what you are discussing. Someone could package in a zip file a few start up savegames and pass on for others to try. We can very easily and quickly find out which of these options are feasible and which should be revised or discarded as non-practical. No need to wait for Oolite 2 for that.
Because I don't think starting in an Adder (or indeed in any core ship other than a Cobra III) is a viable option for a beginner as the game currently stands. I've got a current pilot who's flying an Adder, and killing a few pirates and amassing a little cash too, but with current ship prices, earning capabilities, the torus drive, etc. it would be a horrible place to put a brand-new, never-played-Elite-or-Oolite before player. I think all of the proposed starting options are non-practical without major game surgery.

The best thing I could think of would be to overhaul the ship prices – although we'd have to work out how – give the Adder 3TC (expandable to 5) and boost the speeds of all the player-ships to 0.35. That might give us a vague idea of how it might feel. But at the moment, even doing this, putting a new Jameson in an Adder is making the (already very steep) initial curve even steeper. I'd want to find some way to flatten that out, and ease new players in more gently.

Like I said, to make Oolite a better game than it already is will take a lot of work ...

(and pointless speculation is so much easier ... ;))
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by CommonSenseOTB »

I have already tested out most of the options for the core ships 6 months to a year ago. One of the custom shipsets I constructed has every version of every core ship made in it except Griff and Simon B types so the look was consistent and I have no shader capability on my netbook. Core ships only and everything was redone, views, positions, every niggly little problem and everything was put into balance after in the roles so it looks, plays and feels like normal except small percentage of tougher ships to fight. It feels very realistic. Also almost every ship was made as flyable by the player and I gave the ships all a good shakedown and tweaked some to make them practical to fly.

My conclusion from countless hours of playtesting:

Mambas, sidewinders and kraits make good starting hunter ships as after trade in you have lots of money for equipment and weapons. The lack of a hyperdrive(simulated at the time by script) in the mamba and sidewinder adds a different element to play. Go where the wind blows. See a wormhole, take it. Hunt the spacelane to the mainstation. Repeat. The sidewinder is a dedicated hunter, very nice dogfighter while the krait is a big target, has cargo space and can go anywhere at will. The mamba was in the middle as I adjusted it to be in line with the elite manual and gave it 10t cargo capacity. Good all round ship that mamba with some salvaging ability, harder to hit than the krait but go where the wind blows.
Adders have 5t capacity in my shipset to be able to haul people. Hard to hit an adder. Best strategy was to run and manaeuver with injectors and only fight lone ships if you have a beam laser or better and upgraded shields. As a hunter not enough shields and energy for that. Definately a good scavenger and passenger hauler and was a good challenge but not for a noob that doesn't know when to run.
Worms and transporters were also flyable. No hyperdrive. Worms were like an adder but tougher to use generally because a few stray shots and you are finished. This was when I decided that if each ship type had the possibility of upgrading the shields fully that any ship would work for the player. It would have to be figured out though if the different ships shield upgrades would have different prices and availability. As a concept an adder with shield boosters and military shield enhancement proves quite fun but maybe military shield enhancement for the adder should cost more and be much rarer to find.
Transporters were a good in system scavenger/mining vessel. As for jumping into an unknown system that would be risky using another ship's wormhole without a wormhole scanner.
I did something interesting with the ships that had some real cargo space. Minimum one passenger berth built in. It worked reasonably well so I set it up with most of the other ships. Instead of a large cargo bay option you would simply remove the passenger berths for more space. New players then have a berth to start hauling people and can rip them out when they need more space. The cobra mk3 has 3 berths and 20 t cargo space to start. Need more, rip out the berths.
I find this solution more realistic and less Dr. Who'ish as logic says you can't find more space in the same space with out removing some things. Then I added a cobra mk3 cargo 50 and cargo 70 model with an actual added on subentity external cargo bay extension, 2 different sizes and made it sluggish and slower. You know this worked quite well and was still playable and gave a medium cargo ability at the sacrifice of performance. It just felt right and I was still flying a guppy-like cobra mk3. I reasoned that the cargo bay extension was an extensive refit requiring that the ship be re-engineered or that they came from the factory like that premade with warranty which is why this upgrade is not equipment. Must be bought like that.
While I tested the vipers I found the interceptor to be quite uber and if these were available to the player they should have restrictions on legal status for owners/buyers and the owner should be at least dangerous and have to buy an expensive bounty hunter's licence.
I found the morays to be almost as good as the cobra mk3 and in my version the moray medical is a little faster than the cobra mk3 because medical ships need to go fast in emergencies. The stock moray I made a little slower and lowered the price a bit. Good ships these morays. Now if you could have some use of a ship that can operate in and on water. maybe a restriction in planetfall for ocean worlds.
The cobra mk1 was a cheap alternative to the mk3 but I found that you were better off with a Krait or Mamba or Moray actually. The trade in gives some decent kit though. Might be a good start point for the player and can go in different directions from that point.

How bout a menu choice equivalent for the difference of 150000 credits where the default ship is a cobra mk1 + cash difference.

That's my take on this from my own experiences and playtesting and shipset mods. :D
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by Wildeblood »

Disembodied wrote:
Wildeblood wrote:
I don't agree with this levels ladder idea, but I'm not being facetious here, either. If you want to do an Adder start (or worse), go ahead. It's your game. But I don't think you've made the case that it's the right way to start, and the game should be altered to make it the only way to start.
Here's one I made earlier.
I've read it before. You make a good case. You argue it eloquently. And yet, it's just not persuasive. I'm not even sure why it's not persuasive.
Disembodied wrote:
It could, hypothetically, be a way of making the game better. It would take an enormous amount of work, and I doubt very much that the devs would consider it worthwhile. The fact that this thread got split off from the Looking Ahead thread a while back is a bit of a clue ...
Why do you say it would take an enormous amount of work? All it would take is a new shipdata file, a new shipyard file, a new planetinfo file, a different starting saved-game file and some serious time spent play-testing it to see if perhaps some minor tweaking of the game's populator was called for. What you propose is an OXP (at least to begin with), not major surgery to the game. The one thing I can see that would require the devs' co-operation is enhancing the trading system, which is seriously lame at the moment. I cannot believe that interstellar trade between 2000 planets is confined to just 18 commodities, including three illegal ones. Give me a break.

You seem, to me, to be somewhat "conflicted" about the idea of altering Oolite in any way. On the one hand you argue eloquently the case to start a new Jameson somewhere other than Lave, in something other than a Cobra III, on the other hand you appear to consider the stats of an Adder or Worm to be holy writ, and a minor tweak to them to be something to angst over. If you believe the prices of player ships are out of whack, grab the shipyard file and change them. Once you're happy with it, show it around, get a groundswell of "grass-roots" support, start a petition, kidnap Ahruman's cat...

(Edited for spelling mistakes.)
Last edited by Wildeblood on Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by Oathbreaker »

Greetings Commander Jameson. Are you:

[ ] Easy mode (hidden - start with Cobra Mk3, 1000cr)
[X] Average (hidden - start with Cobra Mk1, 100cr)
[ ] Insane (hidden - start with Adder, 0 cr, Fuel Scoop, in Anarchy system where they sell second-hand Fuel Injection systems that sometimes work)

Add a section on the F8-F8 menu with escorts like the Escorts OXP so that running a Mamba privateer is viable for making cash.
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by Makara »

CommonSenseOTB wrote:
I did something interesting with the ships that had some real cargo space. Minimum one passenger berth built in. It worked reasonably well so I set it up with most of the other ships. Instead of a large cargo bay option you would simply remove the passenger berths for more space. New players then have a berth to start hauling people and can rip them out when they need more space. The cobra mk3 has 3 berths and 20 t cargo space to start. Need more, rip out the berths.
This is an inspired idea. Gets around all the oddities of the mystically doubling (pretty much) cargo capacity as well as opening up possibilities for no investment required early career paths.

At the risk of repeating points made by other posters, although the Cobra III start may be traditional it is very much a ship that can last all game. Certainly it is the best general purpose vessel of the core ships, and not hugely outshone by the Asp in lethality terms. When changing ships wasn't possible in the original Elite it made sense to start the player off in a vessel that had the capability to be turned into a monster otherwise you'd hit a point where there were things that just couldn't be done (imagine routinely Adder flying through anarchies :shock: ). I'm assuming the "one ship for life" approach was due to including alternative handling models, as well as a mechanism to switch ships, to be just too much to squeeze in to the original 8-bit machines.
But with Oolite allowing changes of vessel then upgrades other than just equipment additions become possible. So it makes sense to start people off with a weaker ship, although some game tweaks to make that more beginner friendly would be needed.

Some ideas for possible starts:
  • The cabbie. Adder with passenger berth (yeah, it needs a tweak to the adder) start. Fuel scoops, Fuel Injectors (cabbies run, not fight), 100 credits.
  • The escort. Sidewinder/Mamba start. Beam laser, Escort licence, 100 credits.
  • Traditional. Cobra I (1 passenger berth) start. Pulse laser, 100 credits. Needs some more UPS-style courier missions available though to offset the lower net worth at beginning.
  • Classic (with a twist :twisted: ). Stolen Cobra III start. Pulse laser, 100 credits. With Fugitive status from the outset (200 credit bounty?). Also have the original owner come looking for revenge after a certain amount of game-time has elapsed - gives a different spin on early milk-runs as having systems close together is suddenly more important than just having "safe" systems. Would definitely be the Hard option :wink:
One other thought that was sparked by a posting in this thread (can't find the exact quote) is why not make the Extra Energy Unit just that. The Naval unit could still function as enhanced recharge rate, but if the Extra Unit actually added one more energy bar it would be a lot more useful for weaker ships while still being handy for more powerful ones. Would be one way to make the sub-Cobby 3 starts less painful while not unblancing things later on.
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by CommonSenseOTB »

Makara wrote:
One other thought that was sparked by a posting in this thread (can't find the exact quote) is why not make the Extra Energy Unit just that. The Naval unit could still function as enhanced recharge rate, but if the Extra Unit actually added one more energy bar it would be a lot more useful for weaker ships while still being handy for more powerful ones. Would be one way to make the sub-Cobby 3 starts less painful while not unblancing things later on.
Interesting, personally making an extra energy bank or an extra fuel tank is absolutely no problem especially now that an extra custom gauge can be placed on the hud to read it out and scripting can tie it in nearly seemlessly and n/shift+n activation can give extra control options. Balance means one would have to take up cargo space when installing it. Otherwise its doable as a workaround. I see nothing wrong with these 2 items if done right. :wink:
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by Bugbear »

DaddyHoggy wrote:
I think you should start in an escape pod.

Once docked, you're offered a job cleaning grease off docked ships, for 0.1Cr per hour (Real-time)*, then you can hire a Transporter fitted with a mining laser for 2Cr an hour (3 Cr per hour and each part thereof fine for late return) - you can't have an Adder because you might skips systems, if you're lucky you might earn enough from Asteroid smashing that after just 20 years you can lease a hyperspace capable ship of your very own.

You'd get a real sense of achievement then...

Just saying...

*
Keys:

W - degreaser spray up,
S - Degreaser spray down
A - Degreaser spray left
D - Degreaser spray right
SPACE - Next ship

Note: Until the "ship clean" light comes on - you cannot change ships, otherwise you will be fined for not doing a proper job...

I'm sure with BGS and CSOTB Dynamic HUDs we could OXP this.
Bah. Ship degreaser? Luxury!!!!

I say you should start as an energy based entity in orbit around Lave, and you should have to collect stray subatomic particles in order to give yourself a body first. :lol:
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Re: Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death kn

Post by Bugbear »

Disembodied wrote:
Nope. The Adder is the smallest cargo-carrying, hyperspace-capable core ship. You're playing a spacefaring trader. Therefore, you need a spacefaring trading ship.
Nup, you don't need a hyperdrive if you can hitchhike wormholes. It's unnecessary mass to carry around I say. :lol:
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