Switeck's Shipping v0.5 OXP - Ai, Economy, and Ship changes

[Fatleaf]

I assume since you have no fuel to start with that 6 credits is enough to max out your Adder's fuel. (7 LY worth)

Yup!

...But it's probably still assuming fuel costs 2 credits/LY as far as checking whether you have enough credits to buy it.
In short, a core game bug.

That's probably it.

You're using v1.75.2?

Nope, version 1.75.1. Does that make a difference?

But I will work my way to 14cr, profit. Don't hold your breath everybody!

[Switeck]

You can be forced to save game and turn around and reload it to find sufficient asteroids to reach 14 credits in 1 system. Either that or try to get last shot on pirates already under attack by other ships.

[Commander McLane]

You're using v1.75.2?

Nope, version 1.75.1. Does that make a difference?

It seems to. Using 1.75.2, I just gave myself 7.5 credits and adjusted my fuel level so that buying fuel would cost 6 credits. I could buy it without problems.

There still was a bug regarding the new formula for fuel pricing in 1.75.1, I think, which is fixed in 1.75.2.

[Cdr. Jettison]

You can be forced to save game and turn around and reload it to find sufficient asteroids to reach 14 credits in 1 system. Either that or try to get last shot on pirates already under attack by other ships.

I'm currently using AdderBrokeStart too (only the savegame, not the whole Switeck's mod). I guess I found a way to earn more than 10 credits in one game session not messing up with pirates.

Let's call it 'miner shepherding'. First, you locate a miner ship. They are easily discernible by their behaviour. Besides, there are only three types of them in standard game: Worm, Transporter and Cobra Mk I. From these, only Cobra can also be a pirate, so you need to be a bit more cautious if your ID system tells you it's Cobra. Then you try to fly close formation with the miner, let him to break down asteroids with his mining laser and quickly shoot boulders before he does. Each asteroid yields 4 boulders on average. That gives you some 2 credits per asteroid using this technique. When a shot by you (or by miner if you were not quick enough) releases splinters you try to shoot or ram them, whichever seems easier to you. You absolutely do not want the miner to collect them because if he gets his cargo space full he will stop mining! Be careful not to shoot at the miner in the process. He won't return fire, but there can be police ships or some hunters nearby.

After there are no more asteroids left on the scanner the miner will fly to the nearest rock hermit. Follow him. By that time you've got enough credits to fill up your cargo space (all the whopping two tonnes of it!) with minerals.

[Switeck]

I'm currently using AdderBrokeStart too (only the savegame, not the whole Switeck's mod). I guess I found a way to earn more than 10 credits in one game session not messing up with pirates.

If you did try my mod, did you find problems with it and then remove it?

[Cdr. Jettison]

No, not at all. I'm new to the game and still trying to get the feel of it. That's why I'm not using any OXPs that change game mechanics. But I was curious as to what all those OXPs were about, so I sifted through the wiki pages, downloaded every OXP that seemed to catch my interest and looked at the scripts and config files.

I still periodically get crashed into the station walls when trying to manually dock in Cobra Mk III. Flying Cobra Mk I or Adder solves this problem nicely. Especially in Adder I can dock even not following the recommended procedure of using navigational buoy as docking aid, coming from any angle at maximum speed. The craft is so small you can fly directly into the docking slot not bothering to synchronise the spin. I even have a feel that offering a docking computer as optional equipment for Adder is rather needless.

Sure, I could immediately trade my Cobra for Adder in game, but then I get so much credits on my hands that on next docking I'm almost invariably offered to buy a trumble. And they look so cute I can't resist. I realised that the best way to start the game for me would be by flying Adder, but without any money. Here your savegame came as a big help.

The only thing I changed was 'ship_clock'. It differs slightly across your savegame files. Looking into the source, a definition in src/Core/Entities/PlayerEntity.h reads

Code: Select all

#define PLAYER_SHIP_CLOCK_START (2084004 * 86400.0)

so I felt it was proper to reset the clock to that start value and changed the line in AdderBrokeStart.oolite-savegame accordingly, i.e.

Code: Select all

<key>ship_clock</key>
<real>180057945600</real>

[Switeck]

The save game times being "off" is probably because of the random time added to when I started.
Other than that, the extra time after the start only amounts to a couple minutes.

[Switeck]

I *FINALLY* got Thargons working! They will follow Thargoids around and look entirely different in behavior while doing it than either standard escorts in formation or a tight group of ships that only incidentally are bound to the same destination.
Even 2 Thargoid Warships appearing together in a system can now be more of a threat to shipping because they will launch most or all of their Thargons...which most likely will follow them around.

I also got a trader working that may sometimes come to the aid of the player which is already under attack by pirates. They are uncommon though, so don't expect most traders will do this!

v0.4 was D.O.A. (Dead On Arrival/never released) due to previous problems I've had (mentioned above) as well as the release of v1.75.x of Oolite invalidating quite a few of my earlier changes.

For my next versions, I will be testing the occasional arrival of new traders AND pirates at the witchspace beacon of a system. These will be added more to "keep a system interesting" and will represent the sporadic traffic likely in any system over longer time periods. So you may only see a couple extra ships per hour if all goes well. This will require the addition of javascript code to this OXP, which means it may be harder for me to balance and debug.

[snork]

Hej,

two things I want to give feedback for :

The "more ships will more often scoop stuff" :
works nicely, very nicely, I like it a lot.
Quite often in asteroid fields bypassing (?) Boas and the like who started to scoop one thingy may stay "for good" because some miner always provides "loot" almost all the time.
Chances for collision with competing miners or other looters raise, sometimes two or even three ships would go for the same splinter, (plus me).
It works so well that I also needed to adapt to new strategies for battles - cool.

Traders jumping out shortly after they arrived : imo. problematic
My impression is that them NPCs actually do perform some check for how much fuel they have left ? So when no system is in leftover-fuel-reach they fly towards the planet or whatever,

but :
- if any system is within reach of leftover-fuel they almost always will jump out again ?
- and moreover : if they decide to jump + this is possible, they will always (?) jump back to where they came from ?

Though it's somewhat amusing pondering the reasons for the latter behaviour, it is not so logical and happens too often.


Me playing the Zeke's Miner scenario (no hyperspace jump drive), it even influenced the game too much - I was sometimes able to leave the Zaonce system (market "full") only to inmediately return to my beloved mostly-safe, high-prices-for-mining-goods Zaonce, avoiding the usual risks involved getting somewhere where to wait for someone to jump to a "safe" system.
But also for "standard" play, the inmediate jumping out again happens too often for my own taste, offering possibilities. E.g. it is very easy to reduce a bounty this way.

Also it makes the someone-jumped-out-replacement a bit too obvious for my taste. Could there maybe introduced a small (random) delay ? (no idea if this would be possible for oxp-ers or not.)

Anyways, I like this oxp and hope you still work on it ?

[Switeck]

Mostly, I'm just using the auto-populator...which I have nearly no control over. As ships leave, they get almost immediately replaced and I have no means of putting a delay on that. There is an alternate AI command for npcs to hyperspace out which doesn't get them replaced almost immediately, but it means eventually the system becomes nearly devoid of ships without additional code. Where the npc ships jump off to is completely random, and they always seem to start off with 7 LY fuel...which makes results nonsensical sometimes if there's only 1 destination system.

Trade ships that scoop cargo are 3 times more likely than traders that arrive only to jump back out. This may be too often if they're piling up around rock hermits trying to grab asteroid shards.
Traders that just head to the main station are 6 times more likely.

I'm still working on this, but easy additional improvements to it are a lot harder than when I started.

[Wardy]

Started playing Oolite about a week ago, and already have a good few OXPs, including this one. It's good to have a bit more variety (realism probably isn't quite the right word for a futuristic space combat/trade/exploration game) in ship behavior and this certainly helps.

The alternate starts are a good thing. Starting with a pretty decent ship kind of obsoletes all the cheaper ships, which is a shame really. How often would a Jameson sell his Cobra III to buy an Adder or a Moray?
Starting with a really basic ship and having to work your way up from the very bottom makes you really appreciate every credit you earn, and there must be a huge feeling of achievement when you finally buy a new ship, or even a new piece of hardware.

Found an interesting relation with the mPakRedux (second hand ships) OXP. With the price fix for the Boa, a new one is cheaper than a second hand one.

[Switeck]

That's no surprise with mPakRedux (second hand ships) OXP -- the Boa price reduction is rather drastic, but justified considering it offers very few extras over a Python yet doesn't cost a lot less than a Boa 2.

[snork]

Mostly, I'm just using the auto-populator...which I have nearly no control over. As ships leave, they get almost immediately replaced and I have no means of putting a delay on that.

Ah, ok. I was afraid so. Then again - so what ?
I mean, minor minor and all ...

Where the npc ships jump off to is completely random, ...

but there is something wrong with the random for the inmediate-re-jump, I'd say.

Trade ships that scoop cargo are 3 times more likely than traders that arrive only to jump back out. This may be too often if they're piling up around rock hermits trying to grab asteroid shards.

But it makes for lively asteroid fields - it's cool!
And when I wrote "quite often", that may have been selective perception - after all the more interesting moments are more memorable.
I still go mining sometimes with my now-Python , when there are no real trade opportunities on my routes through the sector, and it is fun how miners and sometimes also others go for "my" splinters.
Players can then choose to still go for a splinter and risk crash, or give it up on that splinter.(or attack the competitor )

I'm still working on this, but easy additional improvements to it are a lot harder than when I started.

I bet. Once have been looking into AIs, and it soon got too complex for me.

Well, anyways - good work, keep going !

--------------------------

hej, Wardy

The alternate starts are a good thing. Starting with a pretty decent ship kind of obsoletes all the cheaper ships, which is a shame really. How often would a Jameson sell his Cobra III to buy an Adder or a Moray?
Starting with a really basic ship and having to work your way up from the very bottom makes you really appreciate every credit you earn, and there must be a huge feeling of achievement when you finally buy a new ship, or even a new piece of hardware.

Absolutely.

Though starting with an Adder is not really enough, I think. The Cobra3 is just way too cheap and far too attractive, so even when starting with an Adder one will probably never go for a Moray or sth. - not for economic reasons at least.

Though I find an Adder-start a bit too much on the tiresome side for my own taste - maybe to be played next to another Ooniverse with a more capable ship. (or tweak by raising the price / resale value for the Adder )

Other possibilities for a more challenging start are the Zeke's Miner Scenario, took me 3 weeks Oolite-time / roughly 3 weeks real-life-time to afford another ship.
Or the Asp-start / Makara's house-rooles (9th post), for a differently dificult way.

Found an interesting relation with the mPakRedux (second hand ships) OXP. With the price fix for the Boa, a new one is cheaper than a second hand one.

lol,
I made this the other way around, for my personal version of the Ooniverse ships sell Adder @ 65k, Cobra1 @ 90k, MorayMed @ 120 k (will raise this slightly next time), Moray Starboat @ 165k, Python @ 250k, Cobra 3 @ 320k, Boa2 @ 750k, ...

Atm. I am tinkering with how much to raise equipment price and Techlevel.

[Switeck]

"but there is something wrong with the random for the inmediate-re-jump, I'd say."

When using the AI.plist script alone, I can only tell them to jump...not where to jump. It's using whatever (awful?) random methods internally at a level I cannot see.

I can convert with huge difficulty to a manual populator (though the auto-populator would still add a few on its own), script every jump, and put in more "realistic" delays between ships leaving and new ships arriving. Do you want this by 2013?

Little-by-little I may add that to this mod, but I cannot promise much in the next version. If you've read this entire message thread, the difficulties I've encountered have been huge. I've overcome, worked around, or just have to live with most...but hopefully reduced the last category a lot lower.

My whole goal with the mod is to leave less stuff that "just bugs me" about the way the universe works. For instance, at an anarchy system -- lone traders are going there in poorly-equipped ships!? Shouldn't natural selection already eliminated that already? Even if there's a new bumper crop of idiots every generation or so, ships aren't so cheaply replaced! (No wonder the Thargoids are winning!)

There's a similar analogy for WW1 and WW2 and U-boats sinking merchant ships...just replace U-boats with pirates and merchant ships with trader ships. (Escort fighters are destroyers/destroyer escorts.) Before long, they'd figure out how to convoy in a meaningful way instead of just 2,4,6 weak escort fighters with low/no cargo capacity to add to the credit-earning capacity of the group. What if freighters started traveling with multiple Cobra 3's for escorts? No reason they shouldn't currently...they just don't. Can't scrounge up enough escorts? Use more freighters! Small groups of 1 freighter per 2 escorts is far less effective than a convoy of 5 freighters with 8 escorts, yet ratio-wise fewer escorts are needed for the latter. Small-scale piracy would cease to exist almost immediately. Even Thargoid attacks would have to be large to be a serious risk, especially if they reused wormholes -- many would have full fuel to jump again. There are hints of escort shortages even in core Oolite (without OXPs) -- it removes escort fighters from freighters at "safer" government systems.

Part of the reason Oolite doesn't have big convoys is game balance and playability. 100-ship convoys would be a HUGE fps drag. Another is how long it'd take to launch them from a station...and can a station even HOLD that many ships? Maybe Superhub can, but I doubt the others do! So if I do make any changes in this regard, I've got to keep this all in mind. Even 20 total ships is probably an upper limit for a credible large convoy to a high piracy+high profit system. Anything larger better be a special mission...and epic enough to merit it!

Equipment prices aren't as big a deal as ship costs, unless you're regularly getting them damaged. Though I do admit, getting the military shields damaged even ONCE can wreck profits for quite a while unless you're in a freighter type doing >100 TC loads of cargo.

If you start ship-rebalancing, you'll never be done. The Cobra 3 starting ship has always been basically overpowered compared to all the others, with exception of the Boa 2 -- which isn't a lot slower but has much better energy banks and cargo capacity. So raising the price on the Cobra 3 means if it's left as a starter ship, it's still "unfixed" -- no reason to ever downgrade and now you can more quickly upgrade since your trade-in value may be a LOT higher.

You also have to consider the rarity of ships in-universe -- if they're not being produced anymore, why would they be for sale cheap? Kraits should be rare and don't even have hyperspace ability normally. An exception-- Pythons are out-of-production supposedly, yet they're cheap for their cargo capacity because they were heavily mass-produced and easy/cheap to maintain...so they last a long time, till something kills them.

I also think the time spent during hyperspace jumps your ship and you (the pilot!) do not age perceptibly. Since a big freighter type like a Python can't make money staying docked, it probably spends most of the time in-transit of a hyperspace jump. So figure 10% of the time in regular space, 90% of the time in hyperspace. After 100 years, the ship's clock (uncorrected!) would show only 10 years have passed! Rip Van Winkle in reverse -- the rest of the universe ages while you don't. This would explain why Pythons are still so plentiful if first manufactured in ~2700 yet they're still in service ~3130. (when Elite and/or Oolite starts?)

[snork]

I can convert with huge difficulty to a manual populator (though the auto-populator would still add a few on its own), script every jump, and put in more "realistic" delays between ships leaving and new ships arriving. Do you want this by 2013?

I would prefer you not wasting time on this.
I bet you have better ideas / things to persuade.

If you've read this entire message thread, the difficulties I've encountered have been huge. I've overcome, worked around, or just have to live with most...but hopefully reduced the last category a lot lower.

Oh, I have. Once back then, and once again now, to see if it already covered what I was wondering about.
(another thing I was wondering had been : is it this oxp or Oolite itself that has the WP->sun->main station spacelanes so void of NPCs ? I found out it is Oolite itself. )

Part of the reason Oolite doesn't have big convoys is game balance and playability. 100-ship convoys would be a HUGE fps drag.

Are you sure ? Oolite has become much better in handling #of entities vs. framerate, at least for me.
I am using last-century hardware (windows) and number of entities for me does not have such huge impact as it used to in 1.73 or 1.74 or so.

Another is how long it'd take to launch them from a station...

Equipment prices aren't as big a deal as ship costs, unless you're regularly getting them damaged.

If you start ship-rebalancing, you'll never be done.

Oh, I am quite happy with the ship-pricing as I have it now.

Of course it only makes sense if player starts with a (very) poor ship. And vice versa starting with a (very) poor ship makes "more sense" with rebalanced ship markets, imo.
I like how core Oolite can then offer 2 main roads to go : trader (Adder -> Cobra1-> Moray Med -> Python -> whatever) or fighter (Adder -> Cobra1 -> Moray Starboat -> Cobra 3 -> whatever).

And the equipment pricing - I want to raise prices and for some items also min.-TL
(to change (read:raise) renovation pricing would require changing in the source code I am afraid )
but well, all that is much off-topic.