Oolite Bulletins

aegidian wrote:

Killer Wolf wrote:

if a scoop scooped gas from the sun at a standard rate we could have a Big Scoop for huge ships, that would be more expensive but negate their need to spend longer at dangerous temperatures.

Yah, my complex maths assumed that scoop size would be proportionate to the surface area of the ship

Interesting. I always assumed that the fuel scoops were a one-size-fits-all type of equipment. I never thought that the equipment department of a station would have a different scoop for each ship type in stock.

Eric Walch wrote:

Code: Select all

Worm:   18 ton   14.0 / 13.7
Cobby: 185 ton   14.0 / 14.0
BCC:   182 ton   13.7 / 13.7
Anna:  429 ton   14.0 / 25.0

I also have to say that it strikes me (again) that the fuel costs are negligible anyway (except for the absolute beginner with his 100 credits). But after the first half-hour of playing 14 credits are negligible, and 25 credits aren't any less negligible. So I don't really see a point in making fuel costs dependent on ship size/mass.

Scooping times are a slightly different matter, but again, what range are we talking about? If scooping currently takes 10 seconds (I don't actually know, I just made the number up as an example), am I really going to notice that it will take 12 or 15 seconds in a bigger ship? I don't believe so.

Commander McLane wrote:

aegidian wrote:

Killer Wolf wrote:

if a scoop scooped gas from the sun at a standard rate we could have a Big Scoop for huge ships, that would be more expensive but negate their need to spend longer at dangerous temperatures.

Yah, my complex maths assumed that scoop size would be proportionate to the surface area of the ship

Interesting. I always assumed that the fuel scoops were a one-size-fits-all type of equipment. I never thought that the equipment department of a station would have a different scoop for each ship type in stock.

i meant in performance, actually, though i didn't explain that mebbes i shoulda said Turbo Scoop!
full reasoning : a normal scoop scoops gas at (say) 1 unit per second. a Cobra needs 5 units per light year. A huge ship needs 30 units ~ that's a LONG time to be hot, therefore a Turbo Scoop could be fitted that scoops at (say) 5 units per sec. The TS is far more expensive and in game terms bigger and needs more power units for it, therefore can only be fitted to ships of 'x' size and over.

McLane, the difference isn't that much to an experienced player, however the fuel price change after you switch ships is still noticeable, especially the first time it happens. In that respect it does the same job as eye candy: it's just extra detail, something that most of the time doesn't affect gameplay much, but makes the game feel more 'real'

However, as in RL, the devil is indeed in the detail: as KW noticed already scooping fuel can be pretty tricky, and many a pilot had to press space because they didn't keep a close eye on the temperature gauge.

On quite a few systems the only way to get a full tank is to dive in for a 3 / 4 seconds scoop, inject out at full speed, wait for the ship to cool down, then do a second dive.

Going with McLane's figures: if it takes 10 seconds to scoop a full tank with a cobby, it will take 18 seconds to do the same with an anaconda, making the whole process trickier.

KW's turbo scoop sounds quite doable as an OXP, though I don't think there's an easy way to do 'incompatible_with' ships < 'x' size yet...

Kaks wrote:

On quite a few systems the only way to get a full tank is to dive in for a 3 / 4 seconds scoop, inject out at full speed, wait for the ship to cool down, then do a second dive.

You can't inject out at full speed without injectors.

And when you do have injectors, scooping does not take very long because you can scoop very fast on injector speed. No need for a second dive with injectors.
(Just don't inject towards the sun )

Cruising with high speed indeed fills the tanks faster, but (I think) it also makes the heat bar raise faster.

The most basal advice for sunskimming is to not fly towards the sun, but make a turn and fly with the belly to it as soon as the scoops are activated. Alternatively you can just stop and turn your nose away from the sun, which lets you get out sooner.

I don't think that I ever got killed through sunskimming (at least not since I have a heat shield). If I go sunskimming in the first place (which I very rarely do, because fuel prices are negligible anyway), I am doing it with injectors on a tangential course, at the end of which I inject away from the sun. Honestly, it doesn't take anywhere near 10 seconds.

All very true!
Thing is, if it takes twice as long, & you're already in a slower ship, a few people might well need to press space a few times before they update their sun skimming technique!

Commander McLane wrote:

I don't think that I ever got killed through sunskimming (at least not since I have a heat shield).

It'd be interesting to know if many people regularly burn themselves while sunskimming.
It might be something similar to the 'docking is too hard' thing: a lot of people find it really easy, but quite a few - possibly green - commanders find it next to impossible...

I do quite a lot of sun-skimming, and use the following technique.

Centre the sun in the Advanced Space Compass. Aim for the centre of the sun and when you are mass-locked hit the injectors (if you have any fuel left). As soon as the scoops start working, pitch up until you can just see the corona in the bottom of the screen.
If I have jump co-ordinates set, hit 'h' as soon as there is enough fuel for the jump and continue fuelling during the countdown. You should have a full tank by the time you jump.
If you are staying in-system, wait till the tank is full, then turn so the sun is immediately behind you...use the ASC to check this. Hit the injectors until you are un-mass-locked, then hit the torus drive. While you are waiting to become un-locked, you can re-set the ASC to your destination (Station, Rock Hermit, Witchpoint etc), and can set course for your new destination while you are injecting away from the sun.
I have found this a quick, efficient method and the Cabin Temp rarely gets above half way up, and stays firmly in the yellow.

The only time it's really hard is if you find a really big star (and possibly have no fuel injectors). I haven't even considered the difficulty factor without heat shields, if it's even possible at all. Obviously they would make the whole process significantly safer.

Darkbee wrote:

I haven't even considered the difficulty factor without heat shields, if it's even possible at all.

There were no heat shields in Elite. So of course it's possible.

Commander McLane wrote:

Darkbee wrote:

I haven't even considered the difficulty factor without heat shields, if it's even possible at all.

There were no heat shields in Elite. So of course it's possible.

The heat/sun-skimming logic is -completely- different in Oolite than it was in Elite. Hence the 'of course it's possible' comment is not quite accurate (it -may- be possible with very small stars and/or injectors and/or hyperspacing out of the system as soon as you have sufficient fuel).

In Elite it was -always- possible to scoop, irrespective of size of star.

pretty sure when i first tried skimming in Oolite i kept overheating and dying before the scoop activated. i was using the same technique as Elite tho, expecting the scoop to kick in when the temp went red, and it never did, dunno what i did wrong but after i got heat shielding everything was fine.

Killer Wolf wrote:

pretty sure when i first tried skimming in Oolite i kept overheating and dying before the scoop activated. i was using the same technique as Elite tho, expecting the scoop to kick in when the temp went red, and it never did, dunno what i did wrong but after i got heat shielding everything was fine.

Same thing happened to me even with heat shielding.

On topic: fuel price in proportion is a good thing...

Zireael wrote:

Killer Wolf wrote:

pretty sure when i first tried skimming in Oolite i kept overheating and dying before the scoop activated. i was using the same technique as Elite tho, expecting the scoop to kick in when the temp went red, and it never did, dunno what i did wrong but after i got heat shielding everything was fine.

Same thing happened to me even with heat shielding.

A possible explanation would be damaged or destroyed fuel scoops.

Zireael wrote:

Same thing happened to me even with heat shielding.

You should always be able to safely scoop fuel when you have heat shielding. The most difficult it is with big suns. Go to a system that shows a big dot on the galactic chart. Those systems also have a big sun. The size of the sun is in direct relation with that of the planet. I just tested it in a system with a planet of 6845 km and flew to the sun with an empty tank. Scoop started with the temperature just over halfway and even after flying away with full tanks, the temperature never rose above 66% of max.

It is quite different in a system that is going to be nova. There you only survive sunskimming with the smaller suns. And once it has become a real nova you will fail sunskimming with any sun.