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Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:40 pm
by dertien
Commander McLane wrote:
dertien wrote:
Hi Eric, thanks for the post, where do I find the values for the Population number and the productivity number since I could only find the first two here:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Shipdata.plist
The others are possibly not documented yet. I can't check, because the Wiki is down.

However, I can tell you that systemProductivity_number is exactly the number as it appears on the F7-screen. (It's not coded like systemEconomy_number or systemGovernment_number). You can use the plain number.

What I can't tell you, though, is what the actual range in Oolite is. You'd have to fly around a little and note down GDPs of various planets, in order to get a feeling what is a low value and what is a high value. And then you just use systemProductivity_number lessthan [i]<reasonable threshold number>[/i].

I think you'll find out that systemProductivity_number and systemPopulation_number are quite closely linked, which makes some sense.

I have some oxp's to update as well and the flying around will have to be done anyway. So I'll look into that and bump it on my todo list CML.

Thanks for the info again, as I said I've learned something today.

S

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:04 pm
by Commander McLane
El Viejo wrote:
dertien wrote:
Can you tell me what the Elite Canon means
Now there's a question... 'canon' refers to things that are generally accepted as correct in a work of fiction.
Most Oolite/Elite canon comes from the Elite manual and The Dark Wheel, but I'm no expert.
To expand on that: 'canon' refers to what is widely accepted as 'official' knowledge in a work of fiction. For a humorous definition you may look over at tvtropes.org (be warned: it is highly addictive, and once you're sucked in starting to visit them, you are likely to waste spend hours days on their very entertaining wiki).

As far as Oolite is concerned, 'canon' consists of a couple of sources. First of all, what we know from the game itself: that there are eight galaxies with 256 systems each, their names, positions, and statistics; that the space academy is located in Lave and gives a Cobra III to all graduates; that there is an ongoing war with the Thargoids, etc. Therefore an OXP which negates the existence of Lave, or the Thargoids, would clash with the canon (note that this isn't necessarily a bad thing; canon is not a law enforceable by some police, and many players may not actually care about it that much, as long as the game is fun). There are other sources as well, most notably the Elite Instruction Manual and the novel The Dark Wheel, which were part of the box in which you bought the original Elite back in 1984. Therefore they are considered an actual part of the game, and contain a lot of information which can't be found in the game code itself. They provide valuable background information. This is especially needed if you want to flesh the game universe out, and need some guide lines how to do it. For instance, if someone in an OXP wants to introduce a new type of station (like you do), it would be nice to somehow fit it into the existing game world.

As I said, you only need to care as much as you like to. There is much debate in our small commOonity about what actually is canon for Oolite. We don't all agree on specific guide lines. What is considered canon by some people is rejected by other people. One main point of debate is the link between the world of Elite and the world of Frontier. How are they connected? Are they at all (in many players' opinions they are not)? But there are other points of debate as well. And sometimes we simply disagree.

One 'canonical' background information on Elite/Oolite is that the 2048 systems in eight galaxies are all members of an organization known as the Galactic Co-operative of Worlds, in short GalCop. GalCop runs the academy on Lave, issues your pilot license, and gives you your first ship. GalCop also controls the trade between its member planets. To this end it has set up trading stations in the orbit of each member planet, and it provides security through the Galactic Police (also abbreviated as GalCop) which patrols the main space lanes. As a trader you are not allowed direct contact and trade with the planets, but all trade has to go through the GalCop-run and controlled stations. Orbital shuttles take it to the planet surface from there.

That's why I said that the planetary governments are not involved with the stations.

GalCop also has a very strict rule of not interfering with the internal affairs of each member. That's why Democracies and Corporate States exist alongside Anarchies and Feudal Systems. GalCop doesn't care about political systems, its only concerns are trade and security.

That's why I suggested that the definition of 'outpost' should more rely on productivity than on political system.

Again, you don't need to subscribe to what others consider 'canonic', and in fact you will find a wide array of different 'canons' here on the boards. Still, my personal opinion is that a little consistency doesn't hurt the game, but on the contrary is an asset, and canon helps to keep a little consistency. :D

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:11 pm
by another_commander
Commander McLane wrote:
... the space academy is located in Lave and gives a Cobra III to all graduates;
... GalCop runs the academy on Lave, issues your pilot license, and gives you your first ship.
Where is this information coming from? I cannot see anything in the Elite manual that implies that GalCop is giving a ship to each graduate.

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:23 pm
by Commander McLane
another_commander wrote:
Commander McLane wrote:
... the space academy is located in Lave and gives a Cobra III to all graduates;
... GalCop runs the academy on Lave, issues your pilot license, and gives you your first ship.
Where is this information coming from? I cannot see anything in the Elite manual that implies that GalCop is giving a ship to each graduate.
Space Traders Flight Training Manual wrote:
Welcome aboard this Cobra Mk III trading and combat craft. The ship has been supplied to you by Faulcon deLacy Spaceways, by arrangement with the Galactic Co-operative of Worlds whose Space and Interstellar Pilot's Exams you have just successfully completed.
The Cobra has been supplied to me by arrangement with GalCop, and I have just passed GalCop's exams. The latter makes me a graduate, and the former is an arrangement between two parties which notably don't include myself(!).

Perhaps I'm over-interpreting here, but to me this sounds like a free ship for a graduate. If you want to read it up, it's the very first sentence. (I have it from Ian Bell's website. I never owned a printed version, so I don't know whether the version on IB's site is identical to that one. The footnote seems to imply so, however.)

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:38 pm
by another_commander
Heh, that's exactly the sentence I was referring to. I don't interpret it the same way though. To me, the ship is supplied to you by Faulcon de Lacy, but you (the player) is the buyer, the customer of Faulcon de Lacy. The arrangement with GalCop is only a natural procedure, since GalCop has to authorize the ship for use by an individual, otherwise there would be noobs without license flying ships all over the place (which, on afterthought, seems to be the case anyway). I can't see how it could make sense that GalCop just hands out multi-thousand-credit ships to graduates.

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:42 pm
by Commander McLane
There is another point, however, where I may be slightly off-canon. The last sentence of the Introductory Data stipulates that:
Space Traders Flight Training Manual wrote:
GalCop and the Lave Authorities allow practice docking and departure runs to all their space stations here, and you would be advised to take advantage of this facility.
This implies that in fact the planetary government does have some jurisdiction in orbit as well. It's not solely GalCop's responsibility to allow you to dock on the stations, but Lave Authorities have a say as well.

Here's another one (from the Coriolis section):
Space Traders Flight Training Manual wrote:
Every world registered with the Galactic Co-operative has several Coriolis space stations in orbit at various altitudes. Coriolis stations are "neutral" territory, controlled equally by GalCop and the Planetary Government.
So the local governments also have a say in the stations. I therefore have to partially retract my earlier statement.

Still, that doesn't contradict that the stations are set-up by GalCop in the first place. And it certainly doesn't mean that GalCop would treat Anarchies with smaller stations on grounds of being Anarchies.

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:44 pm
by Gimi
another_commander wrote:
I can't see how it could make sense that GalCop just hands out multi-thousand-credit ships to graduates.
Lifetime of taxes, docking fees, profit on fuel, equipment, keeping trade going etc. might make it profitable to provide new pilots with ships.

Anyway, either case fits into my world, but given that they had to steel a Cobra in The Dark Wheel, A_C's interpretation is closer to what I have always imagined.

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:44 pm
by dertien
:roll: here we go !!!! :lol:

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:45 pm
by another_commander
What, did we just derail it?
;-)

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:46 pm
by Gimi
dertien wrote:
:roll: here we go !!!! :lol:
:evil:

This is no laughing matter Sir. These things are important.
:mrgreen:

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:47 pm
by Cody
Jellybabies... who said jellybabies?

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:53 pm
by dertien
another_commander wrote:
What, did we just derail it?
;-)
Hahaha, jaja , just a little bit

Anyways, I tried to get a new station ingame without putting something in that didn't "fit" in the Ooniverse, like a flying banana or something similar. Guess I 've got to beef up on my 'Canon' expertise in order not to become cannon foddered by the releases I make LOL.

Funny though. Just wanted to say that although I follow Mac Lane all the way, it is not as easy to change the code and make alle stations behave correctly.

For example, I changed the code for the Octa with a condition so it would show up in anarchy and in feudal worlds. The result was that the dodo didn't show the proper model nor the proper skin anymore.

All I did was thus change the condition on the octo from governmentnumber equal 0 to lessthan 2 and the condition of the coriolis from goverment greater than 0 to greater than 2. Bang there went the dodo and its nice model and texture. So I went back to my original setting which was balanced enough, or so I thought. LOL :D

So I will play with it and try to couple it to the GBP but I don't know if everything will work right.

Like I said before, stations seem to be a pain in the arrrr when it comes to putting them ingame and behaving correctly, at least on my rig on Oolite 1.75

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:55 pm
by Commander McLane
another_commander wrote:
I can't see how it could make sense that GalCop just hands out multi-thousand-credit ships to graduates.
What do multi-thousand credits mean to GalCop? This we don't know.

But more important (however we now leave canon and enter the land of conjecture): perhaps you have paid for it already well before with your extraordinarily expensive school fees? Or the academy has a sponsor? (It's not so far-fetched. RealLifeā„¢ example: in Tanzania I know a church-run vocational training centre, with branches in carpentry, welding & fabrication, and bricklaying & masonry. For many years they had a sponsor in the northern hemisphere who enabled them to provide every graduate with a tool box, in order to kick-start their business. The young lads had trouble even paying the school fees. Many of them would not have been able to afford their own tools after finishing their education, and there is no getting work without bringing your own tools. So it made perfect sense for the training institution to provide it to them, once there was money for that.)

And just in case anybody has a misunderstanding about that: nobody is providing jellybabies to Lave Academy graduates! :P

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:00 am
by dertien
Oh on another note, does anyone know where I could get a hold of YAH 417 since the wiki is down ? I have 4.1.6

Re: [RELEASE] - ZGrOovy Griff System Stations -

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:02 am
by Smivs
Commander McLane wrote:

And just in case anybody has a misunderstanding about that: nobody is providing jellybabies to Lave Academy graduates! :P
Not even Purple ones? :cry: