Oolite Bulletins

Sort of ninja'd by Caracal there. I don’t like the ‘save anywhere’ idea (I won’t go into reasons why), even though it would occasionly be handy, as I’m often a fugitive. The only way I would favour implementing it would be if main stations in very low TL anarchy systems allowed fugitives to dock. I suspect that this would be of no use to those who want ‘save anywhere’ though.

I can understand that anarchies might be less concerned about legal status (lets ignore GalCop running the station for the moment), but I dont see what the TL has to do with it. What is the logic behind low tech places being less concerned about crime?

Actually, no logic at all… it just felt right.

It's a feeling rather than logic...low-tech anarchies always seem more lawless than higher-tech ones.

Cmdr James wrote:

I can understand that anarchies might be less concerned about legal status (lets ignore GalCop running the station for the moment), but I dont see what the TL has to do with it. What is the logic behind low tech places being less concerned about crime?

My concept was that GalCop had essentially given up on that system, at least for the time being, and the operation of the station had been assumed by ... other parties. I figure they want those systems back in the fold, but haven't the resources just now to effect their will in those few particular systems. GalCop's reach is vast and their power great, but neither is infinite. And my Anarchy Stations are unaffected by TL, only by government type.

I can see an argument being made for TL having an effect, but rather in the reverse: GalCop's tech level is by definition 15, while various individual systems vary up and down the scale. So a system which wanted to flout GalCop's authority would have a better chance if their own TL were higher, no? But I'd conceived Anarchy Stations as being less breakaways and more as orphans, so TL doesn't really matter.

The simple solution for now is for those that want it...use Frame's Save Anywhere OXP, despite its limitations. He's got us waiting in the wings for a new release...so hopefully it works a couple (new?) Oolite tricks/miracles.

caracal wrote:

My concept was that GalCop had essentially given up on that system, at least for the time being, and the operation of the station had been assumed by ... other parties.

I'm not happy with that concept. GalCop doesn't concern itself with the political organisation (or the lack thereof) of its member worlds. (Which doesn't mean that—in context of the storyline of a mission—I couldn't imagine a temporary boycott of one single system. But certainly not summarily giving up on 1/8(!) of its members.)

caracal wrote:

I can see an argument being made for TL having an effect, but rather in the reverse: GalCop's tech level is by definition 15, while various individual systems vary up and down the scale.

How so? Especially as 15 is the maximum TL ever encountered in system main stations, so there is no system varying up the scale?

Commander McLane wrote:

caracal wrote:

My concept was that GalCop had essentially given up on that system, at least for the time being, and the operation of the station had been assumed by ... other parties.

I'm not happy with that concept.

I know, and you're not the only one. Which is why I don't plan to distribute my work widely in public. And I'll stop mentioning it in public too; dunno what the hell I was thinking.

Commander McLane wrote:

caracal wrote:

I can see an argument being made for TL having an effect, but rather in the reverse: GalCop's tech level is by definition 15, while various individual systems vary up and down the scale.

How so? Especially as 15 is the maximum TL ever encountered in system main stations, so there is no system varying up the scale?

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. No, there are no systems with a higher TL than 15. I assume that GalCop can bring level-15 tech to bear on any problem it cares enough about. Individual systems, 15 (rarely) or less (usually). My assumption is that an organization standing in opposition to GalCop, foolish though it may be, would have a better chance the higher TL they had.

Anyway, forget I said anything.

Because there's a rare chance a system's station can handle 1 TL higher than normal, you can consider the max TL to be at least 16. This came up as an issue over some galaxies having star regions not connected with the rest...and anyone who arrives in them would have to find a place which sells Galactic Hyperdrives.
Some of the Thargoid stuff can easily be considered at least that level.

caracal wrote:

Commander McLane wrote:

How so? Especially as 15 is the maximum TL ever encountered in system main stations, so there is no system varying up the scale?

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. No, there are no systems with a higher TL than 15. I assume that GalCop can bring level-15 tech to bear on any problem it cares enough about. Individual systems, 15 (rarely) or less (usually). My assumption is that an organization standing in opposition to GalCop, foolish though it may be, would have a better chance the higher TL they had.

I guess I wasn't quite clear. I just stumbled over the "GalCop's tech level is by definition 15", when in-game only stations have a tech level, and GalCop isn't a station. But now it has become clearer to me that you wanted to say that within GalCop space equipment of maximum TL 15 is sold. (Actually, in vanilla Oolite the highest ranking purchasable equipment is available at TL 14 already.)

caracal wrote:

My concept was that GalCop had essentially given up on that system, at least for the time being, and the operation of the station had been assumed by ... other parties. I figure they want those systems back in the fold, but haven't the resources just now to effect their will in those few particular systems. GalCop's reach is vast and their power great, but neither is infinite. And my Anarchy Stations are unaffected by TL, only by government type.

It is a pretty radical restructuring of the Elite universe, but there could be positive advantages – principally allowing players to play as pirates in a more believable setup. Anarchy systems would be places that had fallen off the Co-op's grid: no-go zones for law-abiding citizens, and havens for criminals.

I think you'd need to change the way all main stations behave: non-Anarchy stations won't let players with a criminal rating dock, and Anarchy stations won't let Clean players dock. You'd also have to change the behaviour of pirates, at least those inside Anarchy systems: they should leave criminal players alone, and only attack Clean ones (who, presumably, would only be bounty hunters). You wouldn't get (non-criminal) traders in Anarchy systems at all.

It would be a big departure from canon, but it could definitely make the game more interesting! It would add a hint of rebellion to the "criminal" mix. It would certainly make the geography more interesting: Clean players who needed to travel through an Anarchy system would have to sunskim, and might get chased by patrolling packs of criminals (who might not have done anything except fail to agree to be part of the Co-operative).

Disembodied wrote:

I think you'd need to change the way all main stations behave: non-Anarchy stations won't let players with a criminal rating dock, and Anarchy stations won't let Clean players dock. You'd also have to change the behaviour of pirates, at least those inside Anarchy systems: they should leave criminal players alone, and only attack Clean ones (who, presumably, would only be bounty hunters). You wouldn't get (non-criminal) traders in Anarchy systems at all.

I'm not sure I agree with all of this. Some of the best prices for computers and luxuries can be had at low-tech Anarchies, so trading with them can be very beneficial. Also clean players should be able to dock anywhere, and not just for trade. Don't forget a Pirate with a full hold heading for the station can show as 'Clean'.
And how much 'Honour amongst Thieves' is there? Surely a ruthless Fugitive wouldn't have too many qualms about attacking a low-level Offender, particularly if he was on his own.
The rest I like a lot though.

Disembodied wrote:

It would be a big departure from canon, but it could definitely make the game more interesting! It would add a hint of rebellion to the "criminal" mix. It would certainly make the geography more interesting: Clean players who needed to travel through an Anarchy system would have to sunskim, and might get chased by patrolling packs of criminals (who might not have done anything except fail to agree to be part of the Co-operative).

A big departure, yes, but overall one I would support. As you say it would change a lot of the fundamentals of Oolite, but in doing so would make the game more rounded with new opportunities to follow a different path if that's what the player wants.
Is there also a case for linking AI to Status? For example could a Fugitive have a more aggressive AI than an Offender. An Offender might have accidentally launched having forgotten to sell a Slave he picked up on his last sortie, but is basically a law-abiding type, whereas a Fugitive is a serious career criminal with presumably less to lose and therefore more likely to fight to the death rather than try to flee an attack.

Disembodied wrote:

caracal wrote:

My concept was that GalCop had essentially given up on that system, at least for the time being, and the operation of the station had been assumed by ... other parties. I figure they want those systems back in the fold, but haven't the resources just now to effect their will in those few particular systems. GalCop's reach is vast and their power great, but neither is infinite. And my Anarchy Stations are unaffected by TL, only by government type.

It is a pretty radical restructuring of the Elite universe, but there could be positive advantages – principally allowing players to play as pirates in a more believable setup. Anarchy systems would be places that had fallen off the Co-op's grid: no-go zones for law-abiding citizens, and havens for criminals.

I think you'd need to change the way all main stations behave: non-Anarchy stations won't let players with a criminal rating dock, and Anarchy stations won't let Clean players dock. You'd also have to change the behaviour of pirates, at least those inside Anarchy systems: they should leave criminal players alone, and only attack Clean ones (who, presumably, would only be bounty hunters). You wouldn't get (non-criminal) traders in Anarchy systems at all.

It would be a big departure from canon, but it could definitely make the game more interesting! It would add a hint of rebellion to the "criminal" mix. It would certainly make the geography more interesting: Clean players who needed to travel through an Anarchy system would have to sunskim, and might get chased by patrolling packs of criminals (who might not have done anything except fail to agree to be part of the Co-operative).

This would be a winner for me!

Plus an opportunity for some modellers/texturers to do some beat up looking stations and some cannibalised remnants of the GalCop viper fleet...

We often break with Canon - but only when it benefits the Ooniverse - and I think this would be a huge improvement - and, if this change is made via oxp, if the career pirate is not to your liking, you just uninstall the OXP...

But think of the mission potential in such a rich change - pirate raids on nearby systems - Galcop and Navy raids on Pirate "run" Anarchy systems - special equipment - You become "too hot to handle" even as a pirate and become a target yourself, even in a Anarchy system, oh it would be glorious! DaddyHoggy would never approve of such a pirate life but I'm sure I could fire up an alter ego if such a change was made!

Yeah... this idea I like a lot. My only quibble: these anarchy stations should still let 'clean' players, those who've got the cojones to fight their way through such a system, dock.

El Viejo wrote:

Yeah... this idea I like a lot. My only quibble: these anarchy stations should still let 'clean' players, those who've got the cojones to fight their way through such a system, dock.

Perhaps those running the station might "fine" the clean player? Or steal their cargo and kick them back out in to space (ship optional? ) or pay massively over the odds for a product they can't get hold of? Or swap your transponder for one of their own - so you jump back to safer systems only to find you're an Offender or worse! ("cleared up" when you dock with a Galcop run station but would make for a sphincter puckering fly in-bound), or offer you a job as a "mule" - 'you're clean, so if you just take this package/special cargo/innocent pod for liquor and wines you'll be paid handsomely on arrival at System X...'

The more I think about this - the more I like it!