Oolite Bulletins

Am I the only one who prefers the galaxies referred to as Galaxy 1, 2 etc. or Galactic Chart 1, 2 etc?

I’m perfectly happy with galaxy 1, galaxy 2 etc… but having found a list of names from Archimedes Elite, the idea seemed a good one. Slightly more immersive, maybe, and here I agree with McLane… if we were to have them, stick with the above list from Archimedes Elite. They have some history (canon?) behind them. Only wishful thinking, though… I doubt it’s going to happen.

Galaxy 1 sounds fine to me, too. Was there an attenpt to estimate Earth's position relative to the Elite's galaxies at some stage (hence "Sol" galaxy)?

Commander McLane wrote:

Personally, I have never been in any sector, only in galaxies

I have no idea which stars are in which sector either. Orrere just looked closest to Lave; the SecCom stations are just another place to trade for me, although I did buy some victory bonds at my last visit!

Zbond-Zbond wrote:

Galaxy 1 sounds fine to me, too. Was there an attenpt to estimate Earth's position relative to the Elite's galaxies at some stage (hence "Sol" galaxy)?

Have a look at Selezen's homepage, which doesn't only explain the geography, but also the history (if you believe that "Lave" in Elite and "Lave" in FE2 refer to the same thing, that is).

Here's the important quote for your convenience:

• Lave is just over 63 light years from Earth
• The furthest system away from Lave in the direction of Earth is Orrira, which is 43.6 light years north east of Lave, right on the upper edge of the Galaxy 1 map. This would place it roughly in grid square 0, -2 on the Frontier Map. A slightly closer system, which is more directly on the route is Orteve at 32.8LY.

Zbond-Zbond wrote:

Commander McLane wrote:

Personally, I have never been in any sector, only in galaxies

I have no idea which stars are in which sector either. Orrere just looked closest to Lave; the SecCom stations are just another place to trade for me, although I did buy some victory bonds at my last visit!

There is no such thing as a SecCom station in my Ooniverse. I don't believe in the existence of SecCom stations. I don't think the galactic navy would have them.

(The whole idea of having a strong Galactic Navy with a station in each sector, and huge fleets, and sectors across all galaxies is not Elite canon, but the brainchild of one OXP author, and I just happen to completely disagree with him in every aspect of his idea.)

Commander McLane wrote:

(The whole idea of having a strong Galactic Navy with a station in each sector, and huge fleets, and sectors across all galaxies is not Elite canon, but the brainchild of one OXP author, and I just happen to completely disagree with him in every aspect of his idea.)

I'm pretty sure I saw some more elaborate explanation of your reason for disagreeing, could you post a link to that discussions again please (or maybe just pm me about that), I'd be really interested.

maik wrote:

Commander McLane wrote:

(The whole idea of having a strong Galactic Navy with a station in each sector, and huge fleets, and sectors across all galaxies is not Elite canon, but the brainchild of one OXP author, and I just happen to completely disagree with him in every aspect of his idea.)

I'm pretty sure I saw some more elaborate explanation of your reason for disagreeing, could you post a link to that discussions again please (or maybe just pm me about that), I'd be really interested.

I don't remember how detailed I explained my point of view, but probably the Galatic Navy.oxp-thread (the one where Matt624 introduced the idea) would be a good starting point.

But in short it is about how I understand the nature of GalCop (which is of course influenced by how GalCop presented itself to me in Elite, so for me it is more or less canon). For me GalCop as an organization has mainly two distinctive features: It is as civilian (=non-military) as you possibly could imagine, and it is as low-key as you possibly could imagine for an "international" (=inter-planetary in game) body of nations. In both areas it is far less than for instance the UN as its closest RealLife™ analogy.

It starts with the name. It is not United Planets, it is not a Federation, it is of course not an Empire, but merely a Galactic Co-Operative of Worlds. Which suggests two things: (1) all the constituting worlds are completely independent, they are not "below" GalCop, and GalCop has no jurisdiction whatsoever in their internal affairs, and has no central government or authority worth mentioning. And (2) the completely independent worlds are merely co-operating in two (and two only!) areas: (a) the establishment of a common trading system through GalCop-controlled main stations in the orbit of each member world, and (b) the security of the main space lanes through stationing of a police force in the main stations, and maintaining a central database for offenders and fugitives. That's basically it. The member worlds are so independent that you as a GalCop-licensed trader are not even allowed to land on any of them. All transactions between a planet and other GalCop-members only take place on the GalCop-run station. In recent times the Galactic Police force had not only to deal with pirates in the space lanes, but also with the Thargoids, so there is reason to assume that it also took on military responsibilities, but in Elite there is no evidence of the existence of a strong professional navy, and I don't think GalCop could actually run one. For this reason they mainly rely on a reserve force, of which simply every pilot trained in Lave becomes a member. On the only two occasions where you as player get into contact with the weirdly-named "Her Imperial Majesty's Space Navy" you get the impression of a rather phony organization, not of a super strong well-organized military force. On top of that, if we accept the relatedness between Elite and Frontier, and follow Selezen's timeline, we know that a mere 20 years after Oolite begins, the Thargoids will have completely eradicated GalCop, which again is evidence for a weak military, not a strong one.

For these reasons I concur with the existence of Behemoth.oxp. Having a military force of precisely 16(!) dedicated naval ships (with their fighters) in order to defend 2048(!) planets seems exactly like what GalCop is capable of. On the other hand, having a strict regimen of eight (is it eight, is it 16?) sectors in each chart, every sector with a naval command station, surrounded by large fleets of naval ships, manned by a considerable standing army, seems not like something GalCop would be capable of. Therefore I disagree with Galactic Navy.oxp. It simply doesn't fit into what we know about GalCop and its fate from the backstory.

For me there is no ‘relatedness’ between Elite and Frontier (personal bias, maybe… I did not like Frontier), therefore Selezen’s timeline has little meaning for me. Apart from that, the way McLane describes GalCop etc is pretty much how I ‘see’ the Ooniverse… no ‘security sectors’, no ‘Galactic Navy’… just good old Carruthers and ‘Her Imperial Majesty’s Space Navy’, a delightfully amateurish, rarely encountered, but occasionly effective, organisation... and the 'reserves' i.e you and me.

Commander McLane wrote:

But in short it is about how I understand the nature of GalCop (which is of course influenced by how GalCop presented itself to me in Elite, so for me it is more or less canon). For me GalCop as an organization has mainly two distinctive features: It is as civilian (=non-military) as you possibly could imagine, and it is as low-key as you possibly could imagine for an "international" (=inter-planetary in game) body of nations. In both areas it is far less than for instance the UN as its closest RealLife™ analogy.

It starts with the name. It is not United Planets, it is not a Federation, it is of course not an Empire, but merely a Galactic Co-Operative of Worlds. Which suggests two things: (1) all the constituting worlds are completely independent, they are not "below" GalCop, and GalCop has no jurisdiction whatsoever in their internal affairs, and has no central government or authority worth mentioning. And (2) the completely independent worlds are merely co-operating in two (and two only!) areas: (a) the establishment of a common trading system through GalCop-controlled main stations in the orbit of each member world, and (b) the security of the main space lanes through stationing of a police force in the main stations, and maintaining a central database for offenders and fugitives. That's basically it. The member worlds are so independent that you as a GalCop-licensed trader are not even allowed to land on any of them. All transactions between a planet and other GalCop-members only take place on the GalCop-run station. In recent times the Galactic Police force had not only to deal with pirates in the space lanes, but also with the Thargoids, so there is reason to assume that it also took on military responsibilities, but in Elite there is no evidence of the existence of a strong professional navy, and I don't think GalCop could actually run one.

From the Wiki:-

The Galactic Navy is the military arm of the Galactic Co-operative of Worlds. It is primarily focused on the war with the Thargoids. Absolute command over the Galactic Navy is the responsibility of the office of the GalCop president. The president has one Naval attache, called the Navy Commander-in-Chief, who is usually a serving Admiral or Commodore. Perhaps the most well known officer to serve as Commander-in-Chief was Admiral Matthews. Widely credited as the father of the modern Galactic Navy, Admiral Matthews, through superior leadership and sheer force of will, moved the Navy from a poorly funded, under-manned and under-armed force, to the major military power it is today.
Other than this, the Galactic Navy has no centralised command structure, as this would not be beneficial in the sort of war being fought. Instead, overall control of the Navy resides with regional commanders, called Sector Commanders (SecComs). Each Galaxy contains 14 sectors with one commander assigned to each sector. These SecComs are typically on the front lines of battle, situated on Mobile Command Ships. These are often either Anacondas or Behemoths, depending on the classification of the combat zone. In times of relative peace the commander may be found at the Sector Command Station in orbit around the chosen "home planet" for that sector.

This clearly explains the link between GalCop and the Navy. It seems obvious that as GalCop forces are unable to contain the Thargoid threat, a more powerful military force was needed, and the growth of the Galactic Navy under the civilian control of GalCop was therfore inevitable.

Commander McLane wrote:

For this reason they mainly rely on a reserve force, of which simply every pilot trained in Lave becomes a member. On the only two occasions where you as player get into contact with the weirdly-named "Her Imperial Majesty's Space Navy" you get the impression of a rather phony organization, not of a super strong well-organized military force. On top of that, if we accept the relatedness between Elite and Frontier, and follow Selezen's timeline, we know that a mere 20 years after Oolite begins, the Thargoids will have completely eradicated GalCop, which again is evidence for a weak military, not a strong one.

The name is most likely a traditional one from an Imperial past. Just as the British Empire eroded into sovereign states, but remained linked through the Commonwealth, so the old Galactic Empire persists in a new form, with Galcop taking the role of "Commonwealth". Indeed, the stub of the Empire still exists. Again from the Wiki:-

Unconfirmed rumours place a watchstation in Biorle, where the Galacic Navy keep an eye on the Imperial home system of Achenar.

Also, many question the link between Elite and Frontier, and the timeline it implies. However if the calculations regarding Thargoid victory within 20 years are accurate, a strong Navy would be the only way to avert this. Far from indicating a weak Military, this is evidence of the need for a strong one.

Commander McLane wrote:

For these reasons I concur with the existence of Behemoth.oxp. Having a military force of precisely 16(!) dedicated naval ships (with their fighters) in order to defend 2048(!) planets seems exactly like what GalCop is capable of. On the other hand, having a strict regimen of eight (is it eight, is it 16?) sectors in each chart, every sector with a naval command station, surrounded by large fleets of naval ships, manned by a considerable standing army, seems not like something GalCop would be capable of. Therefore I disagree with Galactic Navy.oxp. It simply doesn't fit into what we know about GalCop and its fate from the backstory.

I really don't think there would be any point in Galcop maintaining a tiny (and ineffectual) fleet of Behemoths. The cost would be vast and the benefit negligible. It makes much more sense for these to be the first line of a powerful Navy, who could afford to maintain a large fleet. The Navy is also self-funding up to a point with Citizens urged to buy Victory Bonds to help the War Effort. The Office of the GalCop President essentially directs the Navy, and provides most of the funding. This is ultimately drawn from general taxation, just as the Military has always been funded. They just don't advertise the fact, but as the Navy protects everyone in the Ooniverse, one way or another, everyone has to pay for it.

On a more general note, Elite was, in its day, a truly great game - it wouldn't still be held in such esteem if it wasn't - but it had no history of its own, and because of its very simple nature, there was no need for lots of background, or lots of 'padding'. Oolite on he other hand is a much more complex beast, and one which is constantly evolving. Just because something did not feature in Elite doesn't mean it was never there. It just never became important.
The Galactic Navy had no role in Elite, so it wasn't relevant, but in Oolite with the strong Thargoid threat and many more (and better organised) Pirate bands, it is a logical extension of what we've brought from Elite.
To my mind an Ooniverse without a strong Navy just doesn't make sense at all.

Smivs wrote:

To my mind an Ooniverse without a strong Navy just doesn't make sense at all.

Although I've got the Galactic Navy OXP in my game, and made adverts for Victory Bonds for YAH, I personally prefer Commander McLane's viewpoint and indeed favour El Viejo's dismissal of Frontier in its entirety. My own (purely internal, private) take on the Co-operative is that it's really pretty unimportant ... maybe there's a President, but this would be a matter of total indifference to the overwhelming majority of individuals in the galaxy. I didn't get a vote, anyway! Almost every single individual lives their lives stuck on one planet all their lives, and most of those lives are pretty nasty, brutish and short. Look at all the terrible places there are: all the anarchies, all the dictatorships, all the feudal worlds, all the multi-government messes and freewheeling corporate ghastlinesses. Some of them might be all right, of course: not every Anarchy world will be chaotic, especially with non-human populations, and with only 8 broad classifications there's bound to be a lot of local variation. But I think you can take it as read that a great many of the teeming billions are having a pretty rotten time.

The Co-operative is really only concerned with interstellar trade: it's little more than a radically stripped-down and brutal legal system, tied to a bunch of associated conventions, to facilitate inter-system trade. It's pretty low-level inter-system trade, too: a few tons here, a few tons there. Mostly, it's for the benefit of various ruling castes and classes, for mega-corporations and the like, paid for by top-slicing the trade to cover the stations and a handful of Vipers. The traders – us – are a strange breed apart, an eclectic mix of weirdos and loners doing a horribly dangerous job, where life is cheap and often short, and the only things that matter are your bankroll and your body-count. But for almost everyone in the galaxy, we're just a bunch of glints and flashes in the night sky.

It sounds a bit bleak, maybe, but it's an interpretation I like. But it's just my interpretation: there's no "right" or "wrong", no matter what it says on the wiki. The Oolite canon is what you choose to go with inside your head!

Bladerunner meets Oolite. Nice concept, and it's as good as any I've seen.
Luckily Oolite is all things to all Men, and we'd probably all go space-happy if we ever tried to reconcile all these interpretations

The problem with the Wiki article on the Galactic Navy is that it was probably written by whoever wrote the Galactic Navy oxp, as background for the oxp.

Smivs wrote:

Bladerunner meets Oolite.

It is kind of, I suppose! It's also quite 17th-century, in a way: tiny ships shuttling around the place, with plenty of pirates and not much hope of any official help if you run into them. The rich get to enjoy the sugar and the coffee and the spices (and the profits), but precious little makes it down to the average bod in the street. And the street has an open sewer running down the middle of it.

El Viejo wrote:

The problem with the Wiki article on the Galactic Navy is that it was probably written by whoever wrote the Galactic Navy oxp, as background for the oxp.

That'd be my guess too. But it works inasmuch as it fits neatly with the broad structure of the Ooniverse as we know it.

Disembodied wrote:

Smivs wrote:

To my mind an Ooniverse without a strong Navy just doesn't make sense at all.

Although I've got the Galactic Navy OXP in my game, and made adverts for Victory Bonds for YAH, I personally prefer Commander McLane's viewpoint and indeed favour El Viejo's dismissal of Frontier in its entirety. My own (purely internal, private) take on the Co-operative is that it's really pretty unimportant ... maybe there's a President, but this would be a matter of total indifference to the overwhelming majority of individuals in the galaxy. I didn't get a vote, anyway! Almost every single individual lives their lives stuck on one planet all their lives, and most of those lives are pretty nasty, brutish and short. Look at all the terrible places there are: all the anarchies, all the dictatorships, all the feudal worlds, all the multi-government messes and freewheeling corporate ghastlinesses. Some of them might be all right, of course: not every Anarchy world will be chaotic, especially with non-human populations, and with only 8 broad classifications there's bound to be a lot of local variation. But I think you can take it as read that a great many of the teeming billions are having a pretty rotten time.

The Co-operative is really only concerned with interstellar trade: it's little more than a radically stripped-down and brutal legal system, tied to a bunch of associated conventions, to facilitate inter-system trade. It's pretty low-level inter-system trade, too: a few tons here, a few tons there. Mostly, it's for the benefit of various ruling castes and classes, for mega-corporations and the like, paid for by top-slicing the trade to cover the stations and a handful of Vipers. The traders – us – are a strange breed apart, an eclectic mix of weirdos and loners doing a horribly dangerous job, where life is cheap and often short, and the only things that matter are your bankroll and your body-count. But for almost everyone in the galaxy, we're just a bunch of glints and flashes in the night sky.

It sounds a bit bleak, maybe, but it's an interpretation I like. But it's just my interpretation: there's no "right" or "wrong", no matter what it says on the wiki. The Oolite canon is what you choose to go with inside your head!

That's how I see it - spooky - there's millions of traders ploughing the space lanes, but there's hundreds of billions of "people" planet-side who either don't care, can't care, or can only dream about "the stars".

Although we see the Ooniverse as being a Space Trader as the norm, in fact we're the exceptions that prove the rule.

Disembodied wrote:

Smivs wrote:

Bladerunner meets Oolite.

It is kind of, I suppose! It's also quite 17th-century, in a way: tiny ships shuttling around the place, with plenty of pirates and not much hope of any official help if you run into them. The rich get to enjoy the sugar and the coffee and the spices (and the profits), but precious little makes it down to the average bod in the street. And the street has an open sewer running down the middle of it.

I seem to have become Devil's Advocate for the Navy Oh, well.
So.
This bleak Ooniverse would benefit a Navy in many ways. As well as the relative freedom this chaotic society would give a Navy, it would also help to sustain one cheaply. Dozens of Worlds with oppressed, trapped-feeling inhabitants would be the perfect recruiting ground for the Navy. You could pay peanuts and still fit young men would come flocking to sign up. It would be (as Navies always have) a way to 'escape' all the troubles of home, and enjoy adventures and foreign travel etc.
The Ooniverse wouldn't sustain (and couldn't organise) conscription, but by paying a minimal wage plus 'room and board' it could man itself for next to nothing, leaving the main capital expense to be the hardware. Sorry second main...admin would no doubt be the most expensive aspect.