Oolite Bulletins

ClymAngus wrote:

The problem as far as an artistic layman such as myself would see it is:

A) Enabling on/off for player turrets so they don't use up all their energy shooting off rounds, like some strange huge plasma space wanking machine.

B) Stopping NPS from firing off all their energy as plasma bolts. Making huge ships easy pickings to your average player.

I kind of feel as an advocate of turrets, that these ideas can be implicated within the bounds of the existing ships datalist. My ship is the bombarder beetle in an ooniverse of machine animals. If you implicate this then I will do all in my power to sernomnavigate it. Such is the superiority of the bio-ship.

Of course I will have a chat about the kirin with it's co-owner and see if we can't come to some agreeable arrangement regarding this questionable endeavor.

As said co-creator of the Kirin, and some other turreted player ships, I'll toss my .02cr worth in here, and some of you aren't going to like what I have to say. Tough.

There's some idea going around that turrets are some sort of uberweapon, all the while forgetting, or outright ignoring that turrets have some severe limitations. Let me spell them out again:

- Turrets have a miserably slow rate of fire.
- Turrets have a miserably slow projectile speed.
- Because of the above, turrets are miserably inaccurate.
- Because of the above, turrets have a miserably short effective range.

And you lot want to slap more limitations on turrets? What, are you insane?

With greater range, superior accuracy, and a far greater rate of fire, until the devs code up something better which is unlikely, the military laser has been, is, and shall be the only uberweapon available among mounted gun weapons. A ship with with twin fore mil' lasers is a hell of a lot more uber than a ship with a few plasma turrets. It's just too bad that only NPCs can mount twin fore mil' lasers, huh?

For me, my ship is naked unless I put mil' lasers on all four mounts; it doesn't matter how many turrets it has. Those lasers are my primary weapons, not the frakin' turrets. The turrets are only useful to me in a point-defense/assistance role. Period.

I stand with Clym in not supporting this crackpot idea.

Stop the madness,
--- Wyvern

Screet wrote:

Not all - I've had juggernauts and such (with OSE) where the recharge rate was high enough to render lasers useless. I speak of using all four lasers by rotating the ship - and not getting ANY effect (seen with shift-h in the log).

I might be naive, but what you're describing here seems to make sense to me, and in no need of adjusting.
If I were to hear in the news that a yacht tried to attack a navy frigate, no matter how well armed the yacht, I would be surprised to hear that the yacht did more than scratching the frigate's hull. Now, if a hundred of yachts tried to attack the frigate in a coordinate attack, then yes, things would be different.

Kaks wrote:

I might be naive, but what you're describing here seems to make sense to me, and in no need of adjusting.

I wrote it to help understand that even IF NPCs do use up energy for turrets they would not necessary need to suffer from this

So far I've only fought BlackMonks with their single turret and did not yet remove the NPCs from the energy usage (set at 3 per shot). At least the BlackMonks did not get visibly weaker by any means.

I myself like it with that setting for my Caduceus...and I think the next thing will be to modify my version so that I have an on/off switch for turrets.

PUUUH. Those Firefox makers are great! My main machine now bluescreens multiple times per hour (and the CPU now can be heard computing on the sound output, which was not that way before). Firefox even remembers what I wrote in the window directly up to the second before the crash, so all I need is to restart the session

Screet

The main aspect of turrets is a psychological one. A kirin in full fight can put a s**t load of flack into the air. But it can be flown through without too much damage. What it does to is panic and distract the pilot. That was and is the point.

Even though there's nothing stopping people dialing down turret potency (or hacking them out of the plists all together) I find this a little like nailing shut a double locked door. But then that is the beauty of this game I'm sure I've put together may a thing that others have considered a little pointless. If you've got the time and it pushes your buttons, go for your life.

I'm unsure why such a small thing is causing so much trouble.

ClymAngus wrote:

Even though there's nothing stopping people dialing down turret potency

Hehe...and I even began to make them target missiles locally before such a change was made for Oolite in general

It's really just that I think it's more logical this way and feels better for me...that's why I asked, because if the majority likes it, it might be worth to add it to trunk instead of just being a local change for myself.

For example, I've also a local change which appears to massively reduce kamikaze ships, but every time I asked wether people would like to make such a change, there was no interest in it

Screet

ClymAngus wrote:

I'm unsure why such a small thing is causing so much trouble. :?

Maybe because NPC don't know about it? They don't react different when attacking a ship with turrets - so the fun is gone. We could need some altered AIs to change this behaviour. Personally I like the visual effect of turrets, but it should be a effect and maybe not a kill-all-weapon without consequences.

Anyway - 30 people 400 opinions :-)

Svengali wrote:

Personally I like the visual effect of turrets, but it should be a effect and maybe not a kill-all-weapon without consequences.

I sometimes get the impression that those who somehow see turrets being unbalanced did not really try them out well enough

The reason is, as ClymAngus said, that turrets are very good at missing. It's like a single fighter plane flying through an immense flak barrage...and it's really difficult to have turrets hit a target well enough to destroy it. Guess what, I typically use my side military lasers because turrets alone are simply too ineffective! I even learned to use those lasers on small and fast moving ships by being a turret owner - before I only was able to do the 4-laser-rotation against big and slow targets.

However, turrets mounted dangerously can be too strong. I did note that when I did change turret rotation on my caduceus to forward in order to be able to fly into structures without removing subentities. That was really impressive: during head-on approaches the turrets usually took less than 3 seconds to destroy any ship!

The AI may not respond to turrets by staying out of their range, but when hit badly enough, they will try to get away, and very often they do manage to do so.

It's also possible to have them fire for 30 seconds at a distance <2km and they don't even hit a single time...

Screet

Screet wrote:

I sometimes get the impression that those who somehow see turrets being unbalanced did not really try them out well enough

Ouh. I've tried the Caddy, Kirin and Xarik with and without other oxps installed. All are adding a additional advantage for the player, specially if no other oxp is installed that raises other ships-stats - so it unbalances the game.

I like these ships - they are all well done and their flight behaviour is absolutely nice, but they need a wide spread range of counterparts. And before you say 'install this or that'. Raising stats is a arms race and makes things completely incompatible and leads to standalone-oxps or exclusive groups of oxps. ClymAngus, Wyvern and Lestradae are doing their best, but they can't do it for every oxp and for every single setting in Oolite, so it would be better to stay within the range of the native game.

I'm in no way against changes and would like to get more options, but this has to be done carefully. That's why I've said that ships with turrets have to face consequences. Not the same as 'NO TURRETS AT ALL', isn't it? And inaccurate? No. If you come close enough to use them then you will come also close enough to minimize their inaccuracy, rendering the piloting skills to nearly null.

Screet wrote:

For example, I've also a local change which appears to massively reduce kamikaze ships, but every time I asked wether people would like to make such a change, there was no interest in it

Screet

I'm interested! Kamikaze pirates really annoy me. There's absolutely no sense in a pirate going into a suicide ramming mode; how is a pirate going to scoop loot when he deliberately killed himself by shoving his ship up your thrusters?

Svengali wrote:

If you come close enough to use them then you will come also close enough to minimize their inaccuracy, rendering the piloting skills to nearly null.

Granted some commanders turn to relying way too much on the turrets, and completely forget turret batteries can't in any way replace skill with a good mounted laser. That tactic just opens them up for a point-blank laser surgery. At best turret batteries can compliment lasers.

Furthermore, turret batteries don't do squat to deter a kamikaze. That nutter has already decided to die and take you with him with his injectors locked full on; a few plasma rounds exploding on his shields - if the turrets manage to hit him at all - just whips him into more of a frenzy.

I can only repeat this time and again:

Overpowered or uber is something that sets players into a distinct advantage against NPCs.

The original, vanilla Oolite lets players start in a ship that is completely uber:

A player Cobra Mk III ...

* has shields (NPCs have not, so always die first in a comparable situation)
* the option to use injectors long enough for half the distance witchpoint - main station (NPCs have not, so you can always escape if careful on the fuel)
* torus drive (NPCs don't have it, so pirates, even in much faster ships, will never get you once you left scanner range and hit "j")
* can witchspace out (NPCs ... you know the drill. They just don't do it.)

All four options are - in vanilla Oolite - de facto not open to NPCs. Players are uber from Jameson start.

Turreted player ships would be uber if the NPCs had none.

If the NPC ships can have turrets, then player ships are not overpowered abominations because they have them too.

An energy recharge rate of 16 is uber in vanilla Oolite, because no one else has that. It is not uber in a game where multiple ships have that sort of reactor power.

And so on. Will we listen to each other? Or will we continue communicating on these issues as if one wall would speak to another wall (or garden table, as it were said by a democrat senator in the US some time ago )?

Please lets really debate this and not get hot-headed and quarrel ... please?

Shanti

L

Screet wrote:

For example, I've also a local change which appears to massively reduce kamikaze ships, but every time I asked wether people would like to make such a change, there was no interest in it ;)

Really? I don’t think I’ve seen any such question. But the forum is not reliable for that sort of thing. If you have a patch, please put it on the bug tracker or the feature tracker… when the highly reliable BerliOS is up again, that is.

I don't recall reading about that patch, but I hope it doesn't stop kamikazes completely. I do like them crazy dudes!

Svengali wrote:

Screet wrote:

I sometimes get the impression that those who somehow see turrets being unbalanced did not really try them out well enough

Ouh. I've tried the Caddy, Kirin and Xarik with and without other oxps installed. All are adding a additional advantage for the player, specially if no other oxp is installed that raises other ships-stats - so it unbalances the game.

I like these ships - they are all well done and their flight behaviour is absolutely nice, but they need a wide spread range of counterparts. And before you say 'install this or that'. Raising stats is a arms race and makes things completely incompatible and leads to standalone-oxps or exclusive groups of oxps. ClymAngus, Wyvern and Lestradae are doing their best, but they can't do it for every oxp and for every single setting in Oolite, so it would be better to stay within the range of the native game.

I'm in no way against changes and would like to get more options, but this has to be done carefully. That's why I've said that ships with turrets have to face consequences. Not the same as 'NO TURRETS AT ALL', isn't it? And inaccurate? No. If you come close enough to use them then you will come also close enough to minimize their inaccuracy, rendering the piloting skills to nearly null.

With the greatest of respect. (Funnily enough I don't particularly like the idea of a tit for tat flame war with smart people). A balanced game is a way of playing oolite. An unbalanced game is a way of playing oolite. I think both are valid and individual players should have the choice of how highly the odds should be stacked for and against them. Player turrets are a very small part of that.

mind you an on/off switch is like a fine adjustment of that very small part. So you can see why I personally am having difficulty seeing the point. That said anything but everything and as long as it's all kept optional then people can color their world however they want. It's when these kind of things are locked off then I think your nannying players, which is bull.