Don't screw with Buzz Aldrin!

[JohnnyBoy]

I put the moon-landing sceptics (most of whom have never gained a physics or chemistry qualification in their lives) in the same basket as the animal rights activists (who are so concerned with seeking out alternative methods for medical testing that they've never bothered to get a biology qualification) and the global warming sceptics (ditto for planetary science quals).

Just a bunch of gobshites.

[MKG]

Now, come on, lads - you're all talking as if the Moon was REAL!

Mike

[Cmdr James]

I put the moon-landing sceptics (most of whom have never gained a physics or chemistry qualification in their lives) in the same basket as the animal rights activists (who are so concerned with seeking out alternative methods for medical testing that they've never bothered to get a biology qualification) and the global warming sceptics (ditto for planetary science quals).

Just a bunch of gobshites.

I have a chemistry degree, and dont really see how that makes me able to judge the validity or otherwise of moon landings (although I dont doubt them).
I am strongly for animal testing of pharmaceuticals, and animal research in general, but I didnt bother to get a biology qualification. I tihnk its worth mentioning that almost all decent research into alternatives is done directly or indirectly by the pharmaceutical industry, and next to none by animal rights activists.
I dont know anyone who has a planetary science qualification. Evidence for man made global warming (for that is the point in question -- I dont think anyone denies climate change in the absolute) is actually hard to come by for the man in the street, he pretty much has to take what the media tell him at face value. That doesnt make deniers right, but it does mean that they arent necesasrily just gobshites. In fact Id say that most people who believe in man made climate change are just as much ignorant sheep as those who do not. Now if you had said 911 conspiracists...

[Disembodied]

I put the moon-landing sceptics (most of whom have never gained a physics or chemistry qualification in their lives) in the same basket as the animal rights activists (who are so concerned with seeking out alternative methods for medical testing that they've never bothered to get a biology qualification) and the global warming sceptics (ditto for planetary science quals).

Just a bunch of gobshites.

Not to promote animal rights activists at all, but there is a qualitative difference: animal rights campaigners (I assume) are taking a moral stance on the issue of the value of human suffering and/or life compared to the value of the suffering and/or life of other species. Although I don't agree with them, there is at least something behind their nonscientific objections.

The moon-landing sceptics are in a different league, though: for some reason they've chosen a quasi-religious belief that the landings were faked. It doesn't matter how much evidence you pile up in front of them, they'll pull some (essentially) theological dodge – e.g. inflating the "conspiracy" to ever-larger levels, crediting it with more and more power to work its wonders in mysterious ways – and remain fixated on their belief that it was all a fake. Often they'll defend their position by saying that they're "keeping an open mind". Just like the flat-earthers.

[Nemoricus]

I think this site deals with the subject in the most appropriate way.

That's brilliant! An excellent site and a nice find, Disembodied.

[Cmdr James]

Not to promote animal rights activists at all, but there is a qualitative difference: animal rights campaigners (I assume) are taking a moral stance on the issue of the value of human suffering and/or life compared to the value of the suffering and/or life of other species. Although I don't agree with them, there is at least something behind their nonscientific objections

That is true, as far as it goes. It is essentially a moral argument. It is wrong to kill or harm animals, as an absolute. Of course, this is never as simple as it is portraid. Many of the what you might call casual anti-testing people, do eat meat, wear leather, and would call the exterminator if they had rats in their house. There are also the harder core who would not.

The second string to this beliefsystem however is less moral, and more crazy, beliving the myth that animal results are not useful as a predictor for humans, which is simply not true. Not all aniumals can be used in all ways to model humans, but in fact they are not selected randomly. Animal data is generally extremely useful for research, and where possible tissue samples are already used (so no animal suffers). Additionally, animal testing is normally associated wirth cosmetic research rather than medical, simply because it is seen as being animal suffering for vainity. Of course animal cosmetic testing has almost completely ended, but it is still used to demonise animal research.

[DaddyHoggy]

Not to promote animal rights activists at all, but there is a qualitative difference: animal rights campaigners (I assume) are taking a moral stance on the issue of the value of human suffering and/or life compared to the value of the suffering and/or life of other species. Although I don't agree with them, there is at least something behind their nonscientific objections

That is true, as far as it goes. It is essentially a moral argument. It is wrong to kill or harm animals, as an absolute. Of course, this is never as simple as it is portraid. Many of the what you might call casual anti-testing people, do eat meat, wear leather, and would call the exterminator if they had rats in their house. There are also the harder core who would not.

The second string to this beliefsystem however is less moral, and more crazy, beliving the myth that animal results are not useful as a predictor for humans, which is simply not true. Not all aniumals can be used in all ways to model humans, but in fact they are not selected randomly. Animal data is generally extremely useful for research, and where possible tissue samples are already used (so no animal suffers). Additionally, animal testing is normally associated wirth cosmetic research rather than medical, simply because it is seen as being animal suffering for vainity. Of course animal cosmetic testing has almost completely ended, but it is still used to demonise animal research.

One of my ex-girlfriends was an Animal Lab technician - her job was to make sure for 99.99% of the time her beagles, monkeys, mice and rats had a wonderful, wonderful life - that there was absolutely no ove-breeding etc etc - and right up until the point she had to do the dirty deed that is what she ensured happened.

The stigma attached to her job in this country meant she upped sticks and emigrated to Australia.

Between us we came up with what we thought was a fairly good argument/tool against those who oppose animal testing - no medical treatment for you or any member of your family that involves ANY drug that has EVER been tested on animals - then once they've all died off - we can stop putting razor wire and 20ft high fences around our medical animal testing facilities (I have worked at the Porton Down site - it's not nice when people waving animal right banners are taking down your number plate details as you drive in and you're there for a meeting on Aircraft Survivability and have absolutely nothing to do with the animal testing facility)

[drew]

I put the moon-landing sceptics (most of whom have never gained a physics or chemistry qualification in their lives) in the same basket as the animal rights activists (who are so concerned with seeking out alternative methods for medical testing that they've never bothered to get a biology qualification) and the global warming sceptics (ditto for planetary science quals).

Just a bunch of gobshites.

Not sure on the last two to be honest.

Some animal rights protestors are just taking a moral or ethical position. (I don't like fox hunting for instance, but arguably a bunch of upper class blokes chasing a lone fox around the countryside makes little overall difference to the world). I know nothing about foxes or biology or anthropology - I just don't like the idea of an animal being ripped to pieces for 'sport'.

Likewise global warming. The subject has been so heavily hyped and politicised the only sensible option (IMHO) is to be extremely skeptical of claims in either direction, particularly when the claims are extreme. Jury still out as far as I'm concerned. I'm also not a scientist and certainly not a 'planetary scientist' (?).

Moon landing though - there are indisputable facts involved, unless you're clearly a nutter and can't discrimate evidence.

Cheers,

Drew.

[Davidtq]

I remember getting a failure in a piece of science homework - a rare thing for me science was my number one subject as a result of animal testing .

We had a big assemble with a visit from some anti vivisection rep doing her drilling and indoctrination about poor puppies with those neck collars etc and how horrible it was for them. We were then set an assignment to write a piece about how bad animal testing was - for science homework, the most moving piece was to win a prize of some sort or another.

I refused and wrote a piece in support of the benefits mankind has reaped from the use of animal testing. It didnt go down well.

[Cmdr James]

Some animal rights protestors are just taking a moral or ethical position. (I don't like fox hunting for instance, but arguably a bunch of upper class blokes chasing a lone fox around the countryside makes little overall difference to the world). I know nothing about foxes or biology or anthropology - I just don't like the idea of an animal being ripped to pieces for 'sport'.

Where do you stand on recreational (not commercial) fishing?

[drew]

Some animal rights protestors are just taking a moral or ethical position. (I don't like fox hunting for instance, but arguably a bunch of upper class blokes chasing a lone fox around the countryside makes little overall difference to the world). I know nothing about foxes or biology or anthropology - I just don't like the idea of an animal being ripped to pieces for 'sport'.

Where do you stand on recreational (not commercial) fishing?

Good point. Not really thought about that one much. Arguably I'm against it, particular if you end up killing the fish as a result. I've never been fishing!

Cheers,

Drew.

[ClymAngus]

Some animal rights protestors are just taking a moral or ethical position. (I don't like fox hunting for instance, but arguably a bunch of upper class blokes chasing a lone fox around the countryside makes little overall difference to the world). I know nothing about foxes or biology or anthropology - I just don't like the idea of an animal being ripped to pieces for 'sport'.

Where do you stand on recreational (not commercial) fishing?

Fox hunting it's a tricky one. Growing up in the country I say it's not efficient enough. A farmer with a shotgun and a good farm dog can do the same job with less effort and more success.

That said watching the huntmaster t**ting crusties fills my life with joy. It's like nazis fighting the KKK. A wonderful moment of universal destruction I can truely enjoy.

If the red coat posse had any nuts at all they'd hunt boar. But they don't so they don't. Don't see why, boar hunting is the sport of kings (they even killed a couple as I remember. The Boar that is.)

Fishing well as long as your not getting sado pleasure watching them gasp. Then fair play. I'm more worried about China executing criminals for their organs personally.

To be honest if your a person with a mind for a fight then you'll find one. Some people need to rage, I just hate it when they're turned in the wrong direction.

[Frame]

No the whole previous century is one big lie.

No moon landing,No World Wars

All the previous centuries casualties was caused by those pesky Martians pouring them down their gullets, until finally they where defeated and our minds cleared by that Xeno-Martian Mind Controlling Machine...

Hey.. My Theory is as good as theirs...

That is what I do, I counter their conspiracy theory with one even more insane, and when they refuse to believe it, I ask them to prove me wrong, using their own arguments against them.

My friend was one of those "believers", I called his theory with those of mine... and eventually he saw that his arguments could be used to support any theory.

[Cmdr James]

No the whole previous century is one big lie.

No moon landing,No World Wars

All the previous centuries casualties was caused by those pesky Martians pouring them down their gullets, until finally they where defeated and our minds cleared by that Xeno-Martian Mind Controlling Machine...

Ive never met a scientologist before

[drew]

Fox hunting it's a tricky one. Growing up in the country I say it's not efficient enough. A farmer with a shotgun and a good farm dog can do the same job with less effort and more success.

That said watching the huntmaster t**ting crusties fills my life with joy. It's like nazis fighting the KKK. A wonderful moment of universal destruction I can truely enjoy.

If the red coat posse had any nuts at all they'd hunt boar. But they don't so they don't. Don't see why, boar hunting is the sport of kings (they even killed a couple as I remember. The Boar that is.)

Fishing well as long as your not getting sado pleasure watching them gasp. Then fair play. I'm more worried about China executing criminals for their organs personally.

To be honest if your a person with a mind for a fight then you'll find one. Some people need to rage, I just hate it when they're turned in the wrong direction.

I grew up in the country too and I still live there. I quite miss the old hunt going past and down the hill. The one near us was very unlikely to actually catch anything, being generally composed of old boys who'd been serious lubricated before, during and after the 'hunt'. It was quite a spectacle though, the chaps looked pretty dapper in all their gear.

I'm not a fan of ripping animals to shreds, but as you point out, there are bigger problems in the world. I'm pretty defensive over friends and family, but beyond that I'm pretty hard to get riled!

Cheers,

Drew.