RFC: Fancy classics

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:29 am

Nice healthy discussion - that's what I was after.

@Ahuman: I have already replaced the entire set of ships twice ;) ... so it's really a question of what you (we) want. If one reimagines an old fav - like the USS Enterprise - one must needs respect the loved styling.

Bear in mind that the images are mock-ups - composite screenshots off Wings3D.

However - I definately hear you. Particularly about the effects. So far I've just been tacking them on.

From the above reactions...
- Python gets a definate "yes". There are now skins for all the python roles... oxp coming. The plan is to have the neo replace the existing model, and a new ship-name and lowered probabilities assigned to the classic. "Classic Python" or "Restored Python"?

- Anaconda is "OK"
- Boa - mixed reaction - it's a good model, but is it a Boa? It also doesn't modify to a cruiser class too easily.

Here's what happens if I keep more of the original shaping:

(fig4. Alternate Boa)

If you put it alongside the classic boa you can see the upper-hull styling matches closely. The classic extends further below though and has a really fat rear. Don't worry too much about the geodesic effect on the underside - thats a separate model, which can be smoothed in the game.

- PCC - I already have a shark-styling on the Typhoon Class Cruiser ;) It originally had big teeth too (scanned from aircraft decals). Personally I don't like the PCC model - and I'm still thinking of how to do a consistent "cruiser class" for each of the larger ships. The standard cruisers are boxier, bigger, faster.

This leads to the main issue, for me, in attempting a "cononical" level upgrade - changing the classic ships is easy... it's all those OXP modifications.

That's why I suggested perhaps the classic ships can be kept as "Classics", which makes the oxp varients into "customized classics" like you get for cars.

BTW: would there be interest in me providing the models themselves rather than just pics? This also allows other modellers to try the ideas out, see what a tweek will do.

wackyman465 · Post by **wackyman465** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:11 pm

It's a nice combo of a rounded ship and an angular ship. It looks nice, too. What I miss on this is the cargo doors the others had. I'm not sure where you would put them (up towards the nose on the "bottom" of the ship?) but they would be a nice addition. Like I said, someone else has a retextured (not remodeled) anaconda floating around where the cargo doors are frangible, shoot it off and you can see the cargo inside.

Website · Post by **DaddyHoggy** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:42 pm

I always thought the big ships like the Boa might split down the middle, a bit like the doors on a RO-RO car ferry, for rapid turn around. Time is money after all.

wackyman465 · Post by **wackyman465** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:45 pm

I don't really get what you mean...

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:01 pm

He means that the entire nose is the cargo bay doors. The ferry's whole bow opens to each side.

Another approach is that of the C130? transport, where the nose lifts up.

If you look closely at the smooth section, you'll see there is an inset place for cargo doors. It appears that, in 1.73, I'll be able to put the door-crack in a normal-map... anyway, the model took about 30mins. and there is a limit to what I'll do for a mockup.

I'll add the textured doors to my list of Things People Like.
They tend to up the poly count - a single quadrilateral door, all flat panels, add 17 triangles... 19 if there are twin doors, and I havn't started on what those zig-zags do. However, I do have a standard set of cargo doors is stock - adds two models - originally intended for a station.

Frangible door would leave a maximum of four models for cargo pods - and the standard pods are out of scale (they have to be if you are to see them) anyway. But it's an interesting Easter Egg.

It occurred to me last night that the above could be the boa and the one before could be the cruiser class??

Website · Post by **DaddyHoggy** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:03 am

@Simon B - C-130 is a four prop jobby with a tail ramp - the big C-17 is the beasty where the nose can lift up (also has a tail ramp) - I figured a nose lift up would be difficult given the potential height restrictions inside the stations...

wackyman465 · Post by **wackyman465** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:12 am

What would be mad cool (and is all totally hypothetical) would be if the front opened like a crocodile's mouth, then the bottom half split in two, and a ramp came out. But until in-station exploration comes around in version 1.84, we'll have to wait.
The pods wouldn't have to be full size - they would just have to be visible. See 50 pods in there, it would be CRAZY. Also, you could script the ship to have the cargo come out of the doors.
And who really cares about poly count?

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:11 am

It was the discussion about bow-doors which did it - here is the third attempt, and I think it's close. (Unskinned - sorry - but you can get the idea...)

(fig5. neo boa varient.)

I started out experimenting with lifting and dropping the nose on the classic boa, as a bow-door. (The bit hanging off the bottom is left over from the classic model.) It turns out it is possible to clear a decent cargo hole by lifting the nose.

Investigating the 3-door (alien crocodile) method - top of the nose lifts, bottom drops and splits - lead to the idea of turning the top part into an auxiliary craft, and insetting the bottom doors.

Once that was done, the rest of the ship was apparent.

This model took roughly four hours, mostly mucking about with the various suggestions - I'll tidy it up for a skin later. Possibly the cargo-door section could be flatter, though that would put a kink in the nose.

I'm thinking that the bulk of the ship is the main body, with the smaller craft/detachable command section as a subentity... but also as an ship in it's own right. I can specify it as an escape pod so an NPC can eject in it ... though I'd need to script leaving a partial-ship model behind - doable?

The partial section can also be one of the wrecks.

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:19 am

In response to the feedback on the neo-anaconda, I have adjusted the model ... see what you think:

(fig 6. Neo Anaconda varient.)

I've put the exhausts in line with the ship axis and given them a slight skirt. Since none of this involved substantial node shifts, the skin remained intact.

To me the anaconda never looked like a workhorse - more sleek. The Boa, now, there's a workhorse.

I'm inclined to consider the python and anaconda models "complete" at this stage - ready for oxp-ization. The Boa model is now in the advanced beta stage... feedback folks.

Website · Post by **DaddyHoggy** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:41 am

Feedback: Love 'em! OXP immediately please!

Screet · Post by **Screet** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:46 am

Simon B wrote:
I'm inclined to consider the python and anaconda models "complete" at this stage - ready for oxp-ization. The Boa model is now in the advanced beta stage... feedback folks.

The problems which I had with the first boa suggestion completely went away with the latest model suggested. I'd really like to see that thing in space!

The updated anaconda also works very well for me.

I'm looking forward to that oxp!

Screet

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:23 pm

So that would seem to be that - the neo-boa is turning out really difficult to skin.

Is it worth separating out materials ... there are three - likely four if I include a boa class cruiser - which will share some characteristics ... all have a set of cabin windows, a blue strip with lines on it, and so forth - I could create a separate texture for these special features, shared by all the ships.

The advantage of lumping them together is that I then only need one effects map for all the ships.

However - the exhausts may need special treatment - not so much for the actual port, which is a single flat panel anyway, but for the heating effects on the adjacent hull. This will be specific to the ship ... so I'll still need a separate effects map for each ship type.

I also need to see what I need for glow maps - I know what is needed, roughly, for custom shaders, and specular effects.

It may be worth planning ahead for normal maps (Ahruman?) Perhaps I can do without dynamic engine glow if a glow map can handle cabin-lights, luminous surfaces etc, then I can just have the exhaust ports glow constantly - so they are reddish when the engines are idling, and the exhaust plume pretty much masks it at full blast?

You guys thought it was simple didn't you? I can whomp up an oxp using flat textures in a few hours, but if the pecial features are to be utilized - the point of the exercize, remember, - then I'll have to plan ahead.

Perhaps it's time to give the Griff a nudge?

Website · Post by **DaddyHoggy** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:26 pm

@Simon B - given that not everybody has shader capable gpus then perhaps it would be worth getting an oxp out with the new shaped ships and "standard" textures and then spend a little more time playing with the special features of glows and other fancy shader stuff.

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:02 pm

Oh yes - the plan is to supply release one with diffuse maps and simple effects. However, given that the advanced setting are to be added later, I'll need to plan for that in the layout of the textures.

Those png files are the most bandwidth intensive part of the OXPs, I'd like to minimize on their use. I'd also rather not have to reskin a ship just to add an extra effect.

If I use a seperate texture for the "special areas" I can probably save.

Anyway - if I include the source files, those of you with the special tools could have a go ... second thoughts - I'll put the sources in a seperate archive: not everyone who wants the oxp will want to use up bandwidth on the sources too.

How much interest is there in laying electrons on the obj files?

(note: if someone else wants to do effects and scripting ... i'll be happy to include their efforts with appropriate attribution. This is "open source" after all.)

wackyman465 · Post by **wackyman465** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:37 pm

I love the ships. I wish you had retained the round back from the second boa, but I don't want to make you make another model. I love the idea of a detachable nose ship, as well. It would be amazing if Oolite had the capabilities for it to launch, act as a real ship, then redock, but...
I think the Anaconda looks more like a combat ship than a 750t carrier (star destroyer looks, flat?).
Honestly, though, if you made these into an OXP, I would buy one immediately to fly around (but probably switch back to my IC).
In canonical theory, the Cobra 3 NjX's nose is supposedly an escape pod... If you figure out how to script the boa nose as a pod, share how - maybe someone will script the NjX like that.
The ships are great. I would have to say the python is the best.