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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:45 pm
by caracal
Commander Mysenses wrote:
caracal wrote:
I guess I'm just whining about not making money fast enough. :oops:
Credits are over-rated man... as long as there's fuel in the tank and the holes in my hull are patched, I'm a happy bunny... not planning on a long retirement! :twisted:
Good point! Live fast, die young, leave an attractive smear on the side of a Coriolis, eh? It's certainly one philosophy. :D
The most frustrating is taking the verbal abuse from my client when the mark jumps and I can't get to the wormhole before it collapses. Still haven't figured out a good solution for that one.
Stay up close and personal... if there ain't blood spatters on your windscreen you ain't close enough!
(and have a couple spare fuel tanks handy, to keep them injectors burning)
Yes, being up close is a good way to examine the surface of a quirium cascade bubble in detail.:P But yeah, since I got a military laser I've grown used to sniping from a long distance. If they run, I'd better be fast on the injectors. That blue sphere is a wormhole, right? Right?!!

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:50 pm
by FSOneblin
Welcome, fellow spacer, to the boards. I hope you enjoy it here. But no board or person (except amen brick) is perfect. But this one is perfect 99% of the time, so you won't see that very often. I agree, the idiot's that crash into the buoys are very dumb. I wish to know your hackish ways that will cure there (and my) dumbness.


Don't panic: FSOneblin

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:51 pm
by caracal
DaddyHoggy wrote:
Your Ad Here - divides/polarises most of the community - some with high spec machines complain it kills them off, others with medium spec machines say it runs fine. Under 1.65 (XP) the older version on my XP2500+ 1GB, 128MB FX5600 it used to cause multiple stutters (micro freezes) which made combat v. difficult

On this machine (XP2800+, 1GB Dual channel, 128MB FX5900XT) running Ubuntu (7.10) the latest version of YAH seems to be OK - no micro freezes and not much of a delay jumping in to a system - although I'm not running too many other OXPs - so I'm not pushing my rig very much. you clearly are (Realistic Shipyards for example!)
I'm embarrassed to admit that after I'd been playing 1.65 for a week or so, I discovered OXPs and went a bit overboard. Installed one, liked it, then grabbed a metric buttload of them and kept adding more. When I put in RS, oolite took like three minutes to start up, and ran at about 0.5 FPS.

So I went medieval on my AddOns directory, and scaled back until pretty much all I had was ships. I then added a few others back cautiously until the game was as customized as I wanted, or at least thought I could afford.

Then I upgrade to the 1.7x series, and things got a lot zippier. Plus, the OXPs that said "1.7x only" were now eligible. So I took out the separate ships and put in RS, and oolite kept running fine. That's where I am today; haven't re-tried YAH. But hearing the tales about the convenience store prices, I'm ready to give it another try.
Good luck - hope the stick problem is resolved - could you beg, borrow, steal another stick to see if its stick specific?
Good idea. I can, oh, sell my left kidney and just buy a new one, maybe. :wink:

..

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:11 am
by Lestradae
Hi caracal!
However, given the way things work, I can't just install the "Realistic Pricing" OXP and then install the separate, say, Phoenix and Terrapin and Pelamis and ImpCourier OXPs and get realistic prices for them. Can I? Can an OXP override another OXP's ship prices?
Actually, you can, it can, and this was the original idea of Realistic Shipyards, but there are a few problems with that (imo).

1. If you used such a version just now, the stderr error report would possibly throw out loads of errors due to ship models missing from the shipdata.plist, but present in the shipyard.plist. That will be resolved by new possibilities when Oolite 1.72 comes out. Until then, errors.

2. If you don`t have a load of ship oxps installed, for reasons having to do with how the game chooses ships for the shipyard you would get nearly empty shipyards. Also not good. That will also be resolved by new possibilities when Oolite 1.72 comes out.

3. The most important reason: Realistic Shipyards 3.01 has grown far beyond a repricing oxp. The merged ship oxps have been partially to completely repaired, and play many more different roles than in their original oxps! RS Version 3.02 (which, with luck, will be ready for download in the next two days) will be even more changed and have completely removed those bugs you observed ... at least I hope so :?

The difference is actually that big that I will treat Realistic Shipyards V3.03 as an entirely new oxp which will be termed Oolite Ships Extension. It will still contain the price/TL rewrite (also for some additional oxps not merged into it). Something that does exactly for what you asked above will also come out and be renamed to Realistic Shipyards V1.1.

But: Realistic Shipyards V1.1 plus most ship oxps of Oolite will probably be less immersive concerning bug-freedom, roles-span and also shipswise (some are unique to RS) than Oolite Ships Extension V1.0. If you love all those weird ships which you can`t only buy, but which also appear in many more different NPC roles than in their original oxps, I would suggest staying with the big version. Just saying.
Hmm, now if that's true, I already have the price calc code working in Python (the language, not the ship) and could convert it to ECMAscript in a heartbeat.
That could actually be a better way to go for a future Realistic Shipyards V1.1, if automated price calculation were available. Care to explain that idea a little in-depth?
Quote:
Hope you are still enjoying Oolite

I certainly am, and your work has a lot to do with that.
Very happy to hear it :D - as this is my second-most motivation for actually doing this. I shamelessly admit that the foremost motivation is to have an oxp that puts into the game what I would love to see in it ... :P

Late night, long post. Have fun!

L

PS: Don`t be guilty about ships not "purist Oolite". It`s a game, and it`s primary purpose, imho, is to be fun and stay surprising and interesting. Everything else is secondary. Methinks, that is :)

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:13 am
by caracal
LittleBear wrote:
Welcome to the boards!
Thank you kindly sir! Love your work!
Random Hits will run with far sun.
Yes, it's working fine here. But with Far Sun it takes a loooooong time to get to the sun or even close to it. I have stopped using SLAPUs as bargain equipment shops, favoring Imperial AstroFactories instead. But the old big suns hurt my eyes. Maybe I should turn down the brightness on my monitor. Don't everybody's chin whiskers smoke from time to time?

My real question was, if I am on a hit and my quarry witches away such that I am unable to get to the wormhole in time, does he still "exist"? If I go to the main station to refuel, I get a dressing-down from the client and the contract is over. :cry: What I was wondering was, if I don't stop at a station, can I try hunting him down in whatever system he jumped to, assuming I can find it, and find him in it? Is it only main stations that trigger the mission ending, or could I refuel at a casino or buoy factory or rock hermit or something and continue my chase? Or, as mentioned earlier, by sunskimming?

Incidentally, I totally lurve Random Hits. It's like a whole second game for me. The descriptions are always a hoot, and the hunting is a fun challenge. Just made Dangerous and am psyching myself up to take on a level-3 hit. The level 2s are nasty enough, I can only imagine what the 3's are like. (Did I mention that I'm a lousy shot and an unabashed coward? Makes being a hit man ... complicated.)
Fuel Injectors and enough fuel to run them are necessary kit really for chasing criminals. Maximise the fuel you have left by jumping in to the target system from the nearest star. :wink: Also buy an extra fuel tank (need Fuel Tank OXP). That'll top up 3 LY with the touch of a button, giving plenty of fuel for injector use.
All fantastic and valid advice, most of which I've learned at the tip of a laser beam.
Don't think the boyracer escape pods are comming from Random Hits. The OXP uses Shuttle, Worm and standard pods as escape craft. It is intentional though that these pods are sometimes launched, but they should be an easy kill or scoop. Boy Racers can be generated as Mark 'main ships' but they don't have cargo scan class (white on the scanner).
I've seen the escape Worms and such, and yes, they are easy prey. (Can you scoop a Worm? I'm still learning a lot about the game. Came across a cluster of deactivated Thargons one day, and had fun blowing them to bits until I accidentally overran one and ... it scooped! As a ton of Alien Items! Then I had to decide whether it was more fun shooting them for the bounty or scooping them as cargo.)

And yes, I took a contract against a BoyRacer once, and it showed up quite normally. Died quite normally too, once I finally was able to get a steady bead on it. Sheesh, those things are like roaches: easy to stomp, if you can catch them.
I think Heretic was working on some boyracer pods so could be from one of his OXPs.
I'll take better note of when I see the next one. If I had to swear, I'd say it was from killing a batch of random lane pirates, but am not at all sure.
On making cash, remember you can do several things at once. ... and just do them when your in that neck of the woods.
Good point. I've tried that in the past with mixed success, but did get the impression that if I was careful about it, I could reap healthy rewards.
You can also trade / pirate / mine your way over to the system where the mission is so the mission money is really extra cash on top of the money you'd have made in the same number of jumps just trading.
True, although the ooniverse in its infinite inconsistency does not lay out alternating rich-ind/poor-ag systems for my convenience. :P
Serious money can be made on the wrong side of the law in the Assassins Guild.
Am looking forward to trying it once I make it to galaxy 7!

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:21 am
by caracal
Disembodied wrote:
For making money, try doing a stint hauling bulk cargo contracts from the F8/F8 screen.
Y'know, back when I was a lowly Competent, I did build up my rep to the point where I started to get gem and platinum hauling contracts. Did great at it, made tons of money, but I got sidetracked on one contract and missed the deadline by three bleeding hours. Then of course I had to unload 768g of gemstones over the next several days, and I haven't been offered any such juicy contracts since. And I have tried to rebuild my rep, to no avail. Don't those guys ever forgive? :cry:
You'll need to get a ship with a big belly, but after you've made a name for yourself as a reliable runner the contracts get juicier and considerably less bulky -- and you can think about trading your ship down again for something a lot more jinky and combat-oriented...
I've actually gone through that cycle a few times now. Buy a cargo hauler, play the scared rabbit for sixty-eleven jumps, make a pile of cash. Trade up to a hot ship and improve my rating. Repeat as necessary. I was "laddering" up, going from a 150k cargo ship to a 200k fighter to a 300k hauler, etc. But after I traded my (civ) Courier in for a Paladin and made it to Dangerous, I seem to have hit a wall. It seems a looooong way to the next level, both in Elite rating and in credits.

So ignore me, I'm just being a baby. I just need to kill a few (dozen) pirates and get my chops back.

Re: Greetings, congratulations, and questions

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:15 am
by caracal
Welcome to Oolite, caracal.
Thank you most kindly. So glad I found it! I needed something to do when I'm not doing things I'm supposed to be doing.
The issue with the ships launching and flying straight to crash on the buoy is definitely a bug. I already have a fix for it, but it is so hackish and horrible, that I am ashamed to submit it to the mainline and would rather look to do it properly instead.
Oh, I hear that! And it's not really a problem, not even to the level of "annoyance". In fact, it's sorta fun to launch from the station, and hang in space nearby to watch the bumper-car show. I once watched a Condor wheeling about in that ocean-liner way they do, while a succession of smaller ships splashed themselves to atoms against its sides. Then, in sympathy I guess, it accelerated and drove straight into the side of the station. Big badaboom!
It is the kind of fix that a developer would use to patch up a bug that was discovered in the final release candidate of a game, like, two hours before going gold.
Been there, done that. Unfortunately they don't give t-shirts for accomplishing heinous code shenanigans.
So, this fix will only go in if there is no proper resolution until the time of next release. At, least GRS Inc. will still be able to do good business until then ;-)
I fully approve of waiting until "it's ready" and doing the fix in the right way. You'll thank yourself for it in six months. And the hardworking folks at GRS would agree, I'm sure.

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:25 am
by caracal
FSOneblin wrote:
Welcome, fellow spacer, to the boards. I hope you enjoy it here.
Thank you, good sir. I've certainly been enjoying reading them over the past weeks, and am enjoying even more interacting with the folks whom I'd only read about before.
But no board or person (except amen brick) is perfect. But this one is perfect 99% of the time, so you won't see that very often.
I am a leading example of this principle. If you look in the dictionary under "imperfect", you'll find a little picture of me next to the definition.
I agree, the idiot's that crash into the buoys are very dumb. I wish to know your hackish ways that will cure there (and my) dumbness.
I've looked at the code, and to be honest, it's not for me. I've dived into huge systems and begun maintaining them before, but when you reach a certain age, the gloss goes off that particular popsicle. I might be able to offer tips and hints, but actual patches, probably not so much. Writing JS for OXPs, that I could see myself doing, maybe. If my ground-based real life allows me the time. Thank goodness there are still people with the fortitude to maintain and enhance a sizeable codebase like oolite.

Re: ..

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:48 am
by caracal
Lestradae wrote:
Hi caracal!
However, given the way things work, I can't just install the "Realistic Pricing" OXP and then install the separate, say, Phoenix and Terrapin and Pelamis and ImpCourier OXPs and get realistic prices for them. Can I? Can an OXP override another OXP's ship prices?
Actually, you can, it can, and this was the original idea of Realistic Shipyards, but there are a few problems with that (imo).
Interesting. Sounds like things might get real interesting once 1.72 hits the streets.
3. The most important reason: Realistic Shipyards 3.01 has grown far beyond a repricing oxp. The merged ship oxps have been partially to completely repaired, and play many more different roles than in their original oxps! RS Version 3.02 (which, with luck, will be ready for download in the next two days) will be even more changed and have completely removed those bugs you observed ... at least I hope so :?
That's great news! I have noticed from looking at the log that a lot of the ships needed some touch-up in their configs. And having looked at (and fixed, a little) the configs, I understand what size job it is.
The difference is actually that big that I will treat Realistic Shipyards V3.03 as an entirely new oxp which will be termed Oolite Ships Extension. It will still contain the price/TL rewrite (also for some additional oxps not merged into it). Something that does exactly for what you asked above will also come out and be renamed to Realistic Shipyards V1.1.
From version 3.x to 1.x? What are you, Microsoft? :wink:
But: Realistic Shipyards V1.1 plus most ship oxps of Oolite will probably be less immersive concerning bug-freedom, roles-span and also shipswise (some are unique to RS) than Oolite Ships Extension V1.0. If you love all those weird ships which you can`t only buy, but which also appear in many more different NPC roles than in their original oxps, I would suggest staying with the big version. Just saying.
I love some of the ships. Some, not so much. I do love having so many choices, though, that's for sure. I guess my main complaint, which is so far still a minor one, is the models and their names. The specs, those are neutral. But when you make a Constitution or a Liberator or a Falcon or X-Wing, that's a bit jarring for me. I still remember nearing the station at Qudira and seeing a Constitution sailing about. I had two thoughts: First, how does a poor agricultural tech level one anarchy afford such a monster police vessel. And second, "Kirk, you bastid!"

Nevertheless, I'll probably install both the pricing and ships OXP once they're out. :P
Hmm, now if that's true, I already have the price calc code working in Python (the language, not the ship) and could convert it to ECMAscript in a heartbeat.
That could actually be a better way to go for a future Realistic Shipyards V1.1, if automated price calculation were available. Care to explain that idea a little in-depth?
I'd love to discuss some of the issues and concepts surrounding RS. Is there already a thread for that, or need we start a new one?
Hope you are still enjoying Oolite
I certainly am, and your work has a lot to do with that.
Very happy to hear it :D - as this is my second-most motivation for actually doing this. I shamelessly admit that the foremost motivation is to have an oxp that puts into the game what I would love to see in it ... :P
I too feel that urge, as I imagine do a large number of others. "If I just had a ship that had this and not that I'd be golden!" Whatever has been said about RS, it certainly does enrich the oolite experience. Maybe not in ways some appreciate, but others do.
Late night, long post. Have fun!
Thanks, you too. Happy flying!
PS: Don`t be guilty about ships not "purist Oolite". It`s a game, and it`s primary purpose, imho, is to be fun and stay surprising and interesting. Everything else is secondary. Methinks, that is :)
Oh, I agree. And as I never actually played Elite itself, I'm not as attached to its tropes as some of those who have. But oolite has established its own rhythm and harmony, and I think some folks find some of the ships to be a little discordant. Back in my pre-RS days, for example, I added nearly every ship OXP, but skipped the Trek and Lucas ones. Now that I've chased and been chased by a Falcon-S, I have an appreciation for the stats, at least. And I have to give props to the modeler of those, and of things like the Mosquito and Merlin and Jabberwocky and Strelka and all the others.

But am I the only one who thinks that a Cobra flying next to a Merlin looks like a folk singer on stage next to a rapper? Not that either one is better, but they come from different worlds and look odd together.

...

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:52 am
by Lestradae
Hi caracal,

just a few quick replies! (Yeah, quick, me :? )
having looked at (and fixed, a little) the configs, I understand what size job it is.
Oh, yeah :(
I'd love to discuss some of the issues and concepts surrounding RS. Is there already a thread for that, or need we start a new one?
Let`s perhaps use this one:

https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=4516
I too feel that urge, as I imagine do a large number of others. "If I just had a ship that had this and not that I'd be golden!" Whatever has been said about RS, it certainly does enrich the oolite experience. Maybe not in ways some appreciate, but others do.
Well, I for one feel that way ...
And as I never actually played Elite itself, I'm not as attached to its tropes as some of those who have. But oolite has established its own rhythm and harmony, and I think some folks find some of the ships to be a little discordant. Back in my pre-RS days, for example, I added nearly every ship OXP, but skipped the Trek and Lucas ones. Now that I've chased and been chased by a Falcon-S, I have an appreciation for the stats, at least. And I have to give props to the modeler of those, and of things like the Mosquito and Merlin and Jabberwocky and Strelka and all the others.
I did play Elite on the C64 twenty years ago, but am not attached to the original in this way that comes across a bit dogmatic for me. Oolite, for me, is what Elite could have been - and that`s more than Elite was! I know many won`t agree, but for me, all the more praise to the people who create/d Oolite for giving me what could have been and now is :D

My in-game explanation for those ships is that for the people in 3200 or somesuch Star Wars or Trek and somesuch are antique artforms!

So, if a shipyard creates a real high-tech ship that looks a bit like it, it might end up being named the "TIE-Fighter" or "Constitution", the same way there is a space shuttle termed "Enterprise" already and the next US space craft will go under the ship type title "Orion". Sounds familiar? See :)
But am I the only one who thinks that a Cobra flying next to a Merlin looks like a folk singer on stage next to a rapper? Not that either one is better, but they come from different worlds and look odd together.
No, you`re right, I feel that too, but that was a reason why I started to merge so many ships together, look at your sentence:

they come from different worlds and look odd together

Exactly! :lol:

From 2000 different worlds in (at least) eight galactic sectors! No wonder they look odd together ... different worlds! Different styles ...

So, finish my "quick" posting :)

L

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:06 am
by JohnnyBoy
caracal wrote:
...then grabbed a metric buttload of them....
Caracal, can I just thank you for introducing me to the funniest unit within the weights and measures system that I've ever seen. :lol:

Re: ...

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:56 pm
by caracal
Lestradae wrote:
Hi caracal,

just a few quick replies! (Yeah, quick, me :? )
As one fellow logorrheaic to another, cheers! :D
I did play Elite on the C64 twenty years ago, but am not attached to the original in this way that comes across a bit dogmatic for me.
I can understand their position, even if I don't totally share it. And oolite seems flexible enough to satisfy a wide range of desires.
Oolite, for me, is what Elite could have been - and that`s more than Elite was! I know many won`t agree, but for me, all the more praise to the people who create/d Oolite for giving me what could have been and now is :D
I agree, especially about the praise part. And as others have pointed out elsewhere, Elite apparently kept evolving with each new version, so having oolite be yet another step in that evolution seems pretty natural.

As my first exposure to this sort of game/sim was Frontier, I definitely see the similarities, as well as the differences. I felt I'd missed out on something by not having seen Elite itself, since Frontier and the community surrounding it made repeated references to it. Now having played oolite, I get a sense of what I missed, and feel (justified or not) that I'm finally getting to experience it for myself, at least in some form.
My in-game explanation for those ships is that for the people in 3200 or somesuch Star Wars or Trek and somesuch are antique artforms!
Yeah yeah, I read that in another thread. A bit of a stretch, mate. :wink: But not entirely outside the realm of possibility, I suppose.
But am I the only one who thinks that a Cobra flying next to a Merlin looks like a folk singer on stage next to a rapper? Not that either one is better, but they come from different worlds and look odd together.
No, you`re right, I feel that too, but that was a reason why I started to merge so many ships together, look at your sentence:

they come from different worlds and look odd together

Exactly! :lol:

From 2000 different worlds in (at least) eight galactic sectors! No wonder they look odd together ... different worlds! Different styles ...
Good point. It's sometimes easy to forget that even though they're not 100% accurately simulated, these are entire worlds and semi-separate civilizations we're talking about here, and it would make sense that out of the billions of sentients in the galaxies, some ship designers might choose different forms and themes than others.
So, finish my "quick" posting :)
Pretty quick by my standards! I'll be joining you on the RS thread momentarily.

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:59 pm
by caracal
JohnnyBoy wrote:
caracal wrote:
...then grabbed a metric buttload of them....
Caracal, can I just thank you for introducing me to the funniest unit within the weights and measures system that I've ever seen. :lol:
Happy to have been of service! I wish I could take credit for inventing it, but all I did was appreciate it enough to pass it along. And I encourage you to do the same. :D

(And who said we Yanks don't go for the metric system?! :P)

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:10 pm
by Captain Hesperus
caracal wrote:
JohnnyBoy wrote:
caracal wrote:
...then grabbed a metric buttload of them....
Caracal, can I just thank you for introducing me to the funniest unit within the weights and measures system that I've ever seen. :lol:
Happy to have been of service! I wish I could take credit for inventing it, but all I did was appreciate it enough to pass it along. And I encourage you to do the same. :D

(And who said we Yanks don't go for the metric system?! :P)
Look! Look! It's another Felinoid!

Captain Hesperus

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:51 pm
by TGHC
You'll be sharing a saucer of milk soon then :wink: