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Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:12 pm
by Redspear
Cholmondely wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 7:13 pm
a - the quote was taken directly from the Viper Interceptor page. This text dates back to JazHaz in 2010 (copied from the Faulcon deLacy page).
The viper part was essentially my understanding from elite, so I had no problem with was was written in order to extrapolate from there.

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 7:13 pm
b - What militates against this, in my mind, is the understanding about GalCop built up on this bulletin board and the wiki over the past 20 years. That GalCop is poor and not too influential. That unlike during its heyday, however many decades ago, it now cannot afford to properly fight the pirates and cannot afford to properly fight the Thargoids. And that the various states have become more and more independent. And that the reason that the wealthier states have the better stations and the better police forces is that they can afford to supplement the miserable amount which GalCop would otherwise pay for them.
And I'd be in agreement with you if the viper interceptor weren't so vastly superior to any of the pirate vessels.

Consider that they travel in packs and have military lasers. What non-oxp pirate pack has a chance against that?
Never minsd that they have injectors and ecm by default, 3 missile each, phenomenal recharge and are not just faster than the competition, they leave them in the proverbial space-dust.

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 7:13 pm
Have you run cim's Space-sim simulator?
No but perhaps I should. Thanks.


If it's not clear already, I'm essentially arguing that the advent of the viper interceptor would hail the slow demise of pirates everywhere when the game blurb has it the other way around.

Unless pirates developed/captured similar ships or at least had military lasers then they'd be the ones clinging on, not the police. None of those things are true in game but I'm guessing that the only reasons pirates are plentiful is that the oolite populator script generates them all upon the players arrival, meaning that the interceptors havent had a chance to decimate them all yet while the player torus drives on to likely encounter them first.


It's not just an argument in realism 'either', more importantly I think it would result in better gameplay.

Non-player ships with military lasers that aren't police? That's always been avoided in the core game for reasons of game balance but smacks hard of player centricity even more than having a torus drive does. Now here's a reason for non-player lone wolves (as the player is) to have them too. As long as they're only given to solitary bounty hunters then game balance is largely intact. Reducing the police to beam lasers all round is still some challenge for the pirate player I think.

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:05 pm
by Cholmondely
Redspear wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:12 pm
... if the viper interceptor weren't so vastly superior to any of the pirate vessels.

Consider that they travel in packs and have military lasers. What non-oxp pirate pack has a chance against that?
Never mind that they have injectors and ecm by default, 3 missile each, phenomenal recharge and are not just faster than the competition, they leave them in the proverbial space-dust.

...

If it's not clear already, I'm essentially arguing that the advent of the viper interceptor would hail the slow demise of pirates everywhere when the game blurb has it the other way around.

Unless pirates developed/captured similar ships or at least had military lasers then they'd be the ones clinging on, not the police. None of those things are true in game but I'm guessing that the only reasons pirates are plentiful is that the oolite populator script generates them all upon the players arrival, meaning that the interceptors havent had a chance to decimate them all yet while the player torus drives on to likely encounter them first.


It's not just an argument in realism 'either', more importantly I think it would result in better gameplay.

Non-player ships with military lasers that aren't police? That's always been avoided in the core game for reasons of game balance but smacks hard of player centricity even more than having a torus drive does. Now here's a reason for non-player lone wolves (as the player is) to have them too. As long as they're only given to solitary bounty hunters then game balance is largely intact. Reducing the police to beam lasers all round is still some challenge for the pirate player I think.
The Corporations (and GalCop?) are going to have the money and skills to develop new ships and weapons such as the military laser. The pirates will not. The Corporations are going to have the money to buy the Viper Interceptor. The pirates and GalCop will not.

The Ooniverse is on a downwards slope. A road from a quiet, orderly, GalCop-dominated ooniverse (with hardly any anarchies or feudal states) to one of utter chaos and confusion. The Ooniverse is not there just yet. But. The thargoids now raid the GalCop systems. Piracy is now a problem. There are no Viper Interceptors in the Anarchies or the Feudal States.

The Viper Interceptor was created by a crumbling GalCop to deal with the problems. But there is not enough money to equip the hardest hit systems with it. Things are getting worse, and the trend looks to worsen. But we don't see that in our game, set in a snapshot in time and with no degeneration built into the vanilla game code.

There will be more anarchies. There will be more, better armed pirates. Some even with Viper Interceptors. There will be more Thargoids. GalCop and the Eight will deteriorate further. And even the richest states will get poorer - and be able to afford fewer Interceptors. And Jameson will now be using the skills he painstakingly built up more and more as everything crumbles around him. And as both military lasers and Viper Interceptors become as rare as gold dust.

We just need to OXP it!

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:15 pm
by hiran
Cholmondely wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:05 pm
The Corporations (and GalCop?) are going to have the money and skills to develop new ships and weapons such as the military laser. The pirates will not. The Corporations are going to have the money to buy the Viper Interceptor. The pirates and GalCop will not.
Alternative scenario:

A mighty corporation / government decides to develop new ships and weapons and decides to equip agents acting as pirates in other systems.
Material for a story? Mission? OXP?

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:27 pm
by Cody
That's true but outside of witchspace how often do you see thargoids? Do they ever show up in packs?
"Time was, bandits were the main risk and experienced pilots in heavily-armed ships could go where they pleased – but piracy had all but disappeared in recent years due to greatly-increased Thargoid activity. Incursions by packs of warships had become the norm, and merchants now had little choice but to travel in escorted convoys. Nevertheless, losses were high and interstellar trade had begun to suffer."

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:38 pm
by Redspear
Cholmondely wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:05 pm
We just need to OXP it!
Or, remove the interceptors and it's done :wink:

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:05 pm
The Corporations (and GalCop?) are going to have the money and skills to develop new ships and weapons such as the military laser. The pirates will not. The Corporations are going to have the money to buy the Viper Interceptor. The pirates and GalCop will not.

The Ooniverse is on a downwards slope. A road from a quiet, orderly, GalCop-dominated ooniverse (with hardly any anarchies or feudal states) to one of utter chaos and confusion. The Ooniverse is not there just yet. But. The thargoids now raid the GalCop systems. Piracy is now a problem. There are no Viper Interceptors in the Anarchies or the Feudal States.
Do you see how those two paragraps contradict each other? Admittedly the last line somewhat less so.

hiran wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:15 pm
A mighty corporation / government decides to develop new ships and weapons and decides to equip agents acting as pirates in other systems.
Material for a story? Mission? OXP?
Sneaky... I suppose the constrictor mission is in similar spirit?

Cody wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:27 pm
"Time was, bandits were the main risk and experienced pilots in heavily-armed ships could go where they pleased – but piracy had all but disappeared in recent years due to greatly-increased Thargoid activity. Incursions by packs of warships had become the norm, and merchants now had little choice but to travel in escorted convoys. Nevertheless, losses were high and interstellar trade had begun to suffer."
From whence emanate such doom-laden sentiment, oh cloud mantled herald?

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 10:36 pm
by Cody
Redspear wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:38 pm
From whence emanate such doom-laden sentiment, oh cloud mantled herald?
Just a snippet from a tale I started years ago (but never finished).

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:13 am
by Redspear
Cholmondely wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:05 pm
The Corporations are going to have the money to buy the Viper Interceptor. The pirates and GalCop will not.
Where do you get the idea that the corporations run the police in their systems?

Elite Manual wrote:
Your kills are photographed and transmitted by TS ComDirect to the nearest GalCop Federal Law Center...

police Vipers (the ships of the GalCop Police Force)...

the Viper was specifically designed for GalCop Space Policing purposes...
Individually, any of the above lines suggest that GalCop might own and operate the police force but collectively they make quite the case I think.

Was there some fundamental change from elite to oolite?

The viper interceptor may not have been specifically designed for GalCop Space Policing purposes but it is employed by them exclusively. At the very minimum I'd expect them to be leased by GalCop.

I don't think it's the corporations paying for them, or at least not directly (given that GalCop, as I've argued elsewhere, likely profits from every trade everywhere). I further don't think it's a matter of sponsorship from a wealthy government either; if a corporate system is making more money from trade then so is GalCop.

Elite Manual wrote:
Coriolis stations are "neutral" territory, controlled equally by GalCop and the Planetary Government

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
by Cholmondely
Redspear wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:13 am
Cholmondely wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:05 pm
The Corporations are going to have the money to buy the Viper Interceptor. The pirates and GalCop will not.
Where do you get the idea that the corporations run the police in their systems?
I don't.

As I thought I'd explained, GalCop runs the police, but the richer states chip in much more (and dictate what happens to their money). This means that GalCop has the dosh to augment the police forces, but only in their states.

Qudira (768MCr) pays in nothing (no government, no tax revenue). GalCop provides minimal cover: police at the Main Orbital Station and the very occasional patrol. GalCop also paid for the Coriolis (probably from back before the collapse, when GalCop had more money, and Qudira may have been a functioning political state able to contribute). You yourself created something with a similar flavour with your proto-Coriolis in your rejig of Solos Alt Stations.oxp

Ceesxe (56,320 MCr) pays in oodles. GalCop can afford police with Interceptors all over the show. But just that show, not Qudira's.

And this explains the disparate cover-arrangements as one progresses from the less stable to the super-wealthy states.

If GalCop had more clout, it would not need to knuckle under to Ceesxe and the Corporates. It would move the Viper Interceptors to the Anarchies and wipe out the pirates. But it doesn't. ("The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order.") Now, I'm pretty sure that I read that the Corporates pay GalCop for a better police service in their states. I may be mistaken. But surely it is irrelevant? The Corporates dominate GalCop and will anyway force GalCop to protect them (with their own tax money) rather than send the Interceptors to the anarchies. Who knows, maybe that was tried earlier when GalCop was stronger, but did not succeed.


OXPs change the flavour, naturally.
With Commies.oxp & Dictators.oxp, those states gain their own police/navy forces too. I note that Imperial Censors and Junta Enforcers are both refurbished Viper Interceptors. These are presumably the most impressive "navy" ships. I presume that the Giant & Military Rays are equivalent.
With Feudal States.oxp, there is no police/navy, but there are lots of wealthy aristocrats bumbling about in their own craft, not all of whom are law-abiding.
With Anarchies.oxp, there are occasional monitor stations in the space lanes. These are sometimes suborned by the pirates. Where does the money for these monitor stations come from? One presumes that this was from the once-larger discretionary part of the GalCop budget, and that the placement of these was a matter of both dire need and of politicking. And that as time goes on, none will be added and more will be captured.
Reference:

Ceesxe - 56,320 MCr - TL15, Corporate
Onrira - 52,800 MCr - TL14, Corporate
Xexedi - 41,760 MCr - TL14, Confederacy
Ensoreus - 45,760 MCr - TL12, Corporate
Zaonce - 41,976 MCr - TL12, Corporate
Tionisla - 37,440 MCr - TL12, Democratic
Vetitice - 28,800 MCr - TL12, Communist
Digebiti - 10,240 MCr - TL8, Feudal
Lave - 7,000 MCr - TL5, Dictatorship
Laenin - 4,608 MCr - TL4, Communist
Riedquat - 1,920 MCr - TL4, Anarchy
Qudira - 768MCr - TL1, Anarchy


Redspear wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:13 am
Elite Manual wrote:
Your kills are photographed and transmitted by TS ComDirect to the nearest GalCop Federal Law Center...

police Vipers (the ships of the GalCop Police Force)...

the Viper was specifically designed for GalCop Space Policing purposes...
Individually, any of the above lines suggest that GalCop might own and operate the police force but collectively they make quite the case I think.

Was there some fundamental change from elite to oolite?

The viper interceptor may not have been specifically designed for GalCop Space Policing purposes but it is employed by them exclusively. At the very minimum I'd expect them to be leased by GalCop.

I don't think it's the corporations paying for them, or at least not directly (given that GalCop, as I've argued elsewhere, likely profits from every trade everywhere). I further don't think it's a matter of sponsorship from a wealthy government either; if a corporate system is making more money from trade then so is GalCop.

Elite Manual wrote:
Coriolis stations are "neutral" territory, controlled equally by GalCop and the Planetary Government
So in Oolite, we are told that the Elite Federation of pilots polices the numbering of kills - and presumably also collects the photographs:

The Elite Federation of Pilots, an independent body linked to most of the major organisations in Galactic space, introduced the Elite Rating in a drive to spur pilots towards self-defence. The Galactic Co-operative, at the time stretched to the limits of the police force by pirate activity, fully supported this move, even introducing combat training into their flight training programme.

The Elite Federation has come under fire from human rights protesters in recent years due to their policy of not questioning what sort of kills are made. They will award kills to pirates and lawful pilots alike without issue. This has opened up many claims that they support piracy and terrorism. The EF answer these charges with the same defence every time: "...it is not our job to protect against lawlessness or to assign blame for actions beyond our control. Our job is to assign ratings. A pirate is still a pirate no matter what his Elite Rating - it is up to the police and the Navy to deal with their crimes".

(from the wiki - written by Selezen (under Elite Rating) in 2006. See the links there for debates about this.

And. The Elite Manual also adds this in:
Galactic banks, which insure the larger trading convoys, will pay a large bounty for each pirate ship destroyed. A ship's computer will transmit photographic evidence of any kill to the GalCop Bank Federation Monitoring Authority. The IR signature of the destroyed ship is then tallied with all known pirate vessels and the bounty hunter pilot credited accordingly.
(- together with a note that most bounty hunters fly Cobras so that they look like traders... p44)

One presumes that the "nearest GalCop Federal Law Center" would tag one as illegal for destroying an innocent ship. Or, at the very least, tie one up in an unending legal case for doing so...

Hence, I think the Oolite understanding of Elite Rating awarding makes more sense. Maybe the Classic Elite wording dates back to the days when GalCop was more in control - and with the collapse, the Elite Pilto's Federation wrested control of the photographic evidence?

Your other two quotes seem to work for both of us.

If it's not clear already, I'm essentially arguing that the advent of the viper interceptor would hail the slow demise of pirates everywhere when the game blurb has it the other way around.

Unless pirates developed/captured similar ships or at least had military lasers then they'd be the ones clinging on, not the police. None of those things are true in game but I'm guessing that the only reasons pirates are plentiful is that the oolite populator script generates them all upon the players arrival, meaning that the interceptors haven't had a chance to decimate them all yet while the player torus drives on to likely encounter them first.
My understanding is that the Viper Interceptors only appear in Corporates and maybe Democracies too. So a patrol of Viper Interceptors will not appear in the less stable states.

This squares with the Oolite.space introduction:

The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to. The trade ships that once safely travelled between planets now have to be well armed and escorted to fend off pirate attacks, from small-time criminals desperate for their next meal, to powerful robber barons extracting tithes from everyone who passes through their space.


The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.

And this explains why there are few pirates found in Corporate states.

I understand your logic, that should more Interceptors be built, then the pirate domination of the anarchies would be over. Or that of the Interceptors were sent to the Anarchies, piracy would be nobbled. But that does not happen in-game - and the Oolite.space introduction explains why (The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to).

It is rather like the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. Towards the end, you still had the legions (but of mercenaries), and the glorious roads and aqueducts and all of that. But their upkeep was not happening as the tax income was reduced and the mercenaries took more and more of the shrinking budget.

I see the Ooniverse in a similar light. GalCop had the money to develop the interceptor, but does not have the money to build more and deploy them in the anarchies.

And as regards the Constrictor mission, that is under the aegis of "Her Majesty's Space Navy". Not GalCop. Or GalCop (police). There are two takes on this as you well know, that of the syncretist Galactic Navy (tied in with GalCop) and the other of the more purist HIMSN. And HIMSN has a very different lore/background from GalCop.


I hope that this gives you a better idea of what I am trying to say.



Edited to add:

This is all based on the presumption that the Interceptors are not found in the poorer/less stable systems. Am I wrong?

There are some two dozen mentions of interceptor (including pirate interceptors) in the vanilla game's oolite.populator.js

These seem relevant to this dumb pilot:

Code: Select all

...
	/* high-tech systems will send interceptor wings out specifically
	 * to deal with incoming heavy pirate packs */
	var interceptors = 0;
	if (system.info.techlevel >= 9)
	{
		interceptors += pflightremote/2 + pfmediumremote + pfheavyremote*2;
	}

	this.$repopulatorFrequencyOutgoing.policePacks = police;
	this.$repopulatorFrequencyOutgoing.policeInterceptors = interceptors;
...
	// police - included in this post to give context
	// 5/6 go route 1, and back. 
	initial = police * 5/6 * (l1length*2 / 900000) * (1.0-0.1*(7-system.info.government));
	system.setPopulator("oolite-police-route1",
						{
							priority: 40,
							location: "LANE_WP",
							groupCount: randomise(initial),
							callback: this._addPolicePatrol.bind(this)
						});

	initial = police * 1/6 * (trilength / 900000) * (1.0-0.1*(7-system.info.government));
	system.setPopulator("oolite-police-triangle",
						{
							priority: 40,
							location: "LANE_WPS",
							groupCount: randomise(initial),
							callback: this._addPolicePatrol.bind(this)
						});
	system.setPopulator("oolite-police-stationpatrol",
						{
							priority: 40,
							location: "STATION_AEGIS",
							callback: this._addPoliceStationPatrol.bind(this)
						});
	

	// interceptors
	initial = interceptors / 2;
	// half on way or returning
	system.setPopulator("oolite-interceptors-route1",
						{
							priority: 40,
							location: "LANE_WP",
							groupCount: randomise(initial),
							callback: this._addInterceptors.bind(this)
						});

	// half on station
	system.setPopulator("oolite-interceptors-witchpoint",
						{
							priority: 40,
							location: "WITCHPOINT",
							groupCount: randomise(initial),
							callback: this._addInterceptors.bind(this)
						});
...
	/* repopulate outgoing traffic */
	// police
	if (Math.random() < this.$repopulatorFrequencyOutgoing.policePacks)
	{
		if (system.countShipsWithPrimaryRole("police") < 30)
		{
			this._debugR("Launching police patrol");
			this._addPolicePatrol(this._policeLaunch());
		}
	}
	if (Math.random() < this.$repopulatorFrequencyOutgoing.policeInterceptors)
	{
		if (system.countShipsWithPrimaryRole("police-witchpoint-patrol") < 30)
		{
			this._debugR("Launching police interception patrol");
			this._addInterceptors(this._policeLaunch());
		}
	}
...
this._addPolicePatrol = function(pos)
{
	var role = "police";
	if (9+Math.random()*6 < system.info.techlevel)
	{
		role = "interceptor";
	}
	var h = this._addGroup(role,Math.floor(Math.random()*2)+Math.floor(Math.random()*2)+2,pos,2E3);
	for (var i = 0 ; i < h.ships.length ; i++)
	{
		h.ships[i].bounty = 0;
		h.ships[i].homeSystem = system.ID;
		h.ships[i].destinationSystem = system.ID;
		if (h.ships[i].AIScript.oolite_intership)
		{
			h.ships[i].AIScript.oolite_intership.initial_group = h.ships.length;
		}
		if (system.info.techlevel >= 14)
		{
			this._setMissiles(h.ships[i],1);
		}

	}
}


this._addPoliceStationPatrol = function(pos)
{
	var role = "police";
	if (9+Math.random()*6 < system.info.techlevel)
	{
		role = "interceptor";
	}
	var p = system.addShips(role,1,pos,0)[0];
	p.primaryRole = "police-station-patrol";
	p.group = system.mainStation.group;
	p.group.addShip(p);
	// p.switchAI("oolite-policeAI.js");// autoAI gets this
	p.bounty = 0;
	p.maxEscorts = 16;
	if (system.info.techlevel >= 14)
	{
		this._setMissiles(p,1);
	}

}


this._addInterceptors = function(pos)
{
	var h = this._addGroup("interceptor",Math.floor(Math.random()*2)+Math.floor(Math.random()*2)+1+Math.ceil(system.info.techlevel/6),pos,2E3);
	for (var i = 0 ; i < h.ships.length ; i++)
	{
		h.ships[i].bounty = 0;
		h.ships[i].primaryRole = "police-witchpoint-patrol";
		h.ships[i].maxEscorts = 16;
		h.ships[i].homeSystem = system.ID;
		h.ships[i].destinationSystem = system.ID;
//		h.ships[i].switchAI("oolite-policeAI.js"); // auto AI
		// only +1 as core already gives police ships better AI
		this._setSkill(h.ships[i],1);

		if (system.info.techlevel >= 14)
		{
			this._setMissiles(h.ships[i],1);
		}
	}
}


Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 6:00 pm
by Redspear
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
Now, I'm pretty sure that I read that the Corporates pay GalCop for a better police service in their states. I may be mistaken. But surely it is irrelevant?
Irrelevant? I thought it was the basis of your argument?
At least we're trying to understand each other :lol:

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
The Corporates dominate GalCop and will anyway force GalCop to protect them (with their own tax money) rather than send the Interceptors to the anarchies. Who knows, maybe that was tried earlier when GalCop was stronger, but did not succeed.
That's all conjecture of course. I think it's no less likely to argue that GalCop simply chooses to position its interceptor fleets in order to protect it's greatest profits. Admittedly this would greatly suit the corporates but wouldn't require their control.

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
So in Oolite, we are told that the Elite Federation of pilots polices the numbering of kills - and presumably also collects the photographs:
Problem here is that whoever posts on the wiki early enough has their vision appear pseudo-canonical. Didn't Selezen also adapt the frontier timeline to suit oolite? Then there's cim's histories of course...

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
See the links there for debates about this.
Quite.

That's why I think the elite manual is canonical (at least in a historical sense) but the wiki is a mish-mash. No disrespect intended, the very presence of oxps and tailoring one's ooniverse makes it so.

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
Maybe the Classic Elite wording dates back to the days when GalCop was more in control
Questinable. I think the tide had already turned viz.
Elite Manual wrote:
The slave trade, once almost eliminated by the Galactic government is now returning, despite the efforts of the Galactic Police Force to suppress it.
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
I understand your logic, that should more Interceptors be built, then the pirate domination of the anarchies would be over. Or that of the Interceptors were sent to the Anarchies, piracy would be nobbled. But that does not happen in-game - and the Oolite.space introduction explains why (The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to).
I'm not sure that you do.

I think you've got this part:
  • Interceptors in any system would make it so safe as to decimate piracy.
Here's the bit I think you're missing:
  • These new super-safe, now super-rich systems would effectively expand by exporting their interceptors. This would certainly be in the interests of GalCop and having nearby trade opportunities open up.
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
and the Oolite.space introduction explains why (The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to).
Does it? How does it say why the above would not happen?

My position is that the very existence of the interceptor is contrary to the above parenthesised narative.

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
But that does not happen in-game
Right, and I think this may be why we are at cross purposes.

I'm suggesting that the inteceptor doesn't suit this narrative and further that the best way to stick to that narrative is not to restrict the interceptors to the safer systems but rather to remove them altogether.

The viper pursuit is already an upgrade over the viper, so they'd be one way to make a safer system's police force better. Another would be to grant police military lasers in the safer sytems. Granting them the Constrictor's baby brother (YMMV) is not only unnecessary IMHO but it's also undesirable.

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
It is rather like the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. Towards the end, you still had the legions (but of mercenaries), and the glorious roads and aqueducts and all of that. But their upkeep was not happening as the tax income was reduced and the mercenaries took more and more of the shrinking budget.

I see the Ooniverse in a similar light. GalCop had the money to develop the interceptor, but does not have the money to build more and deploy them in the anarchies.
That's a good example I think but the interceptor, in terms of a game-changer, is more nuclear bomb than testudo formation I think.

Each interceptor would soon pay for itself I think, so having the money and means to develop the interceptor would soon lead to having the money and means to depoly them anywhere they like (and they're hyperspace capable too :wink: )

So the decline of the Roman Empire example sets a fine narrative. I like it! But as far as I can see the development of the interceptor doesn't suit it one little bit.

The tide is supposed to have turned sagainst GalCop, the pirates gaining ground in terms of stretching police resources. The interceptors' presence is something like dropping your special forces unit of choice into a pub brawl.

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
And as regards the Constrictor mission, that is under the aegis of "Her Majesty's Space Navy". Not GalCop. Or GalCop (police). There are two takes on this as you well know, that of the syncretist Galactic Navy (tied in with GalCop) and the other of the more purist HIMSN. And HIMSN has a very different lore/background from GalCop.
I was comparing flavour, nothing else. Cross purposes again I think.

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:38 pm
I hope that this gives you a better idea of what I am trying to say.

This is all based on the presumption that the Interceptors are not found in the poorer/less stable systems. Am I wrong?
I hope so too :lol:

And I think you're right about they're in game distribution. That was admitedly part of my commentary but never my point.


Nutshell:

GalCop with interceptors does not equal GalCop in retreat from Piracy.
However much ground the pirates gained in their absence is about to be lost.



So while this sounds like the decline of the Roman Empire
The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.
the advent of the interceptor strongly suggests it's entering a new phase of expansion.


If that doesn't explain the cross purposes (superficially: in-game finance effects upon space-lane superiority as serving the status quo vs. space-lane superiority effects not serving the gameplay first nor the staus quo second) then I'm respectfully checking out for a while.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:33 pm
by Cody
Redspear wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 6:00 pm
... and they're hyperspace capable too...
Yes... but in all my years wandering the spacelanes, I've yet to see one use its hyperspace motor.

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:16 pm
by Redspear
Cody wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:33 pm
Redspear wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 6:00 pm
... and they're hyperspace capable too...
Yes... but in all my years wandering the spacelanes, I've yet to see one use its hyperspace motor.
Likewise. IIRC, has_hyperdrive says yes, but AI says no.

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:00 pm
by Cody
<nods>

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:02 pm
by Switeck
Cody wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:27 pm
That's true but outside of witchspace how often do you see thargoids? Do they ever show up in packs?
"Time was, bandits were the main risk and experienced pilots in heavily-armed ships could go where they pleased – but piracy had all but disappeared in recent years due to greatly-increased Thargoid activity. Incursions by packs of warships had become the norm, and merchants now had little choice but to travel in escorted convoys. Nevertheless, losses were high and interstellar trade had begun to suffer."
I've seen a lot of Thargoids in systems, not even sure what OXP is creating them or if it's the core game.

I know the core game can throw in 1 or 2 Thargoids into a system, because I've looked at the code some...but more than that tends to be other causes (OXPs/OXZs). Thargoids AI behavior can be modified as well to follow your escape wormhole from interstellar space to regular systems...so that's one way to get bigger groups at regular systems. My Switeck's Shipping OXP mod did that, but it's still very broken/not compatible with much past Oolite v1.76.

Even 2 together can be more than a nuisance to a Viper group due to the Thargons they can spit out, so that reason alone could justify Viper Interceptors in richer systems. Keep them rare, give the universe more variety without having to add OXZs!

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:18 pm
by Cody
Switeck wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:02 pm
Thargoids AI behavior can be modified as well to follow your escape wormhole from interstellar space to regular systems...
McLane's Wormhole Restoration can do that, if memory serves.

Re: Controversy Corner - ditch the interceptor?

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:42 pm
by Redspear
Switeck wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:02 pm
Keep them rare, give the universe more variety without having to add OXZs!
The interceptors or the thargoids or both?

I think 'better' design can do that but YMMV with regards that one.
Variety is fun but character is engaging. A tricky balancing act sometimes.

Meanwhile...

Image


I've long thought this ship was overpowered in oolite and the above is the closest I've found with regards it's original archimedes statistics.
If, however, it has 3 motors compared to the mk I's 4 (and drive motors relate to speed) then... 0.24 (boa mk I speed) /4 x3 = 0.18LM, much slower than it's 0.312 value in oolite.

Would that be any better? Well, it would place it between the mk I and the anaconda (at 0.14).
In comparison to the former, it has other advantages such as more pylons, better recharge, additional energy bank and another 50 cargo capacity.
With regards the latter, nothing makes much sense if the anaconda has 750TC but the boa II does best it in both manoeuvrability and recharge.

It would, I think, also stop it being a super-ship. It would still be almost as fast as a python with a host of other benefits including nearly double its cargo capacity, so an excellent ship but not one that makes others obsolete.