Oolite Bulletins

Redspear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:46 pm

Switeck wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:40 am

Once again, Commies barely adds any stations -- the AstroGulags are usually just converted Rock Hermits added by the ingame populator rather than additional stations. It's only in higher tech level communist systems that the other stations are added, and even then typically only 1 of the 2 other types.

Fair enough but my point was that when every system type has a distinct, strong character then there is variety of theme rather than peaks and troughs of excitement. 'They have red stations and we have blue' is relatively dull compared to 'we have stations and they don't' (and yes, they are extreme hypothetical examples rather than in any way directly representative of the systems oxps - I'm using them to make a point about variety rather than criticise them either individually or in general).

I've made OXP station exclusion rules in my personal setup -- typically limiting the number of big OXP stations near the main station to 0 or 1. Having done this, I gave them a bunch of specific rules that means some aren't even available in some Galaxy Charts.

Redspear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:46 pm

szaumix wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:33 am

Just popping in to say that attempting to add "sight seeing" trinkets one at a time is fabulously ineffective

Agree that it's both labour intensive and that any 'one-off', interesting as it may be, actually adds little to any sense of exploration.

So how else could it be done?

Pick a common game element

• e.g. asteroids

Imagine a rewarding (but very rare) variant that could potentially appear anywhere

• e.g. asteroids that yield gold rather than (or in addition to) minerals

Have there be some associated risk or limitation so that once found the benefit can't simply become a limitless exploit

• e.g. once player has mined X kg of gold, or once X number of hours hours have elapsed, then the supply in that system is exhausted (at least temporarily)

Ore Processor OXP can extract random extras from asteroids besides minerals...it's been made far less of a credit farm than it was back about 2012. Last I checked, 1 TC of minerals in the form of an asteroid shard scooped may still give either 1 kg gold, 1 kg platinum, 1-9 grams of gem-stones, 1 TC alloys, or 1 TC of radioactives...or quite often just be a dud and be nothing more than 1 TC of minerals.

I feel like Ore Processor should be a refinery/foundry found at a Rock Hermit rather than mounted on a ship...to add additional realism and justification for getting more goodies from asteroids.

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:35 am

I feel like Ore Processor should be a refinery/foundry found at a Rock Hermit rather than mounted on a ship

I did this in Hermitage.

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:35 am

I've made OXP station exclusion rules in my personal setup -- typically limiting the number of big OXP stations near the main station to 0 or 1

Have done similar myself (love a good condition script) but again, if something is different rather than rare and rewarding (e.g. a different extra station rather than a genuinely exciting find) then... well it's something but I wouldn't call it exploration, especially when condition scripts (if that's the way you're doing it) lend themselves to predictability.

It depends in part of course on how much (and indeed which) information is hidden from the player via the f6/f7 interface.

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:35 am

Ore Processor OXP can extract random extras from asteroids besides minerals...it's been made far less of a credit farm than it was back about 2012.

I'm aware of that oxp without having ever used it.
That uses the common method of 'game expansion' via equipment sales. Rarer asteroid types is a more exciting way to do it IMHO (it then becomes an event/opportunity rather than an ability/wealth for the wealthy) and automatically adds a limiting factor to 'credit farming'.
Default asteroid mining is not very lucrative however, do I'd add some visual clue that an asteroid grouping contained gold or some other valuable resource.

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:35 am

I feel like Ore Processor should be a refinery/foundry found at a Rock Hermit rather than mounted on a ship...

phkb wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:43 am

I did this in Hermitage.

Agreed. I know oolite ships are huge but a refinery might be pushing it... Meanwhile why wouldn't a rock hermit have one in at least some cases?

Redspear wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:44 am

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:35 am

I've made OXP station exclusion rules in my personal setup -- typically limiting the number of big OXP stations near the main station to 0 or 1

Have done similar myself (love a good condition script) but again, if something is different rather than rare and rewarding (e.g. a different extra station rather than a genuinely exciting find) then... well it's something but I wouldn't call it exploration, especially when condition scripts (if that's the way you're doing it) lend themselves to predictability.

It depends in part of course on how much (and indeed which) information is hidden from the player via the f6/f7 interface.

Either way, it's only exploration the 1st time you go there.

If not every Communist system has a SLAPU, and you've never visited one...then it's still something new when you do.
The question then becomes -- is there ever a reason to go back again?

...Because although there's a LOT of systems in the 8 Galaxy Charts, very few hold secrets even if you installed nearly every OXP and OXZ.

Whole Galaxy Charts are relatively neglected as far as extra stations and missions are concerned.

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:35 am

Ore Processor OXP can extract random extras from asteroids besides minerals...it's been made far less of a credit farm than it was back about 2012.

Rarer asteroid types is a more exciting way to do it IMHO (it then becomes an event/opportunity rather than an ability/wealth for the wealthy) and automatically adds a limiting factor to 'credit farming'.
Default asteroid mining is not very lucrative however, do I'd add some visual clue that an asteroid grouping contained gold or some other valuable resource.

I thought Ore Processor OXP adds extra asteroids/shards by appearance and the yield is based on that rather than random rolls done by the Ore Processor after you get the shards on your ship...but doesn't look like that's the case (anymore?) via the current scripts.js and lack of a working shipdata.plist

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:50 pm

I thought Ore Processor OXP adds extra asteroids/shards by appearance and the yield is based on that rather than random rolls done by the Ore Processor after you get the shards on your ship...but doesn't look like that's the case (anymore?) via the current scripts.js and lack of a working shipdata.plist

The original did, but they did not mix well with the newer core/oxp shards. When I updated the oxp I took another approach and added a functionality to the equipment to scan splinters thus revealing goodies.

And as a personal note, the ore processor makes mining even remotely profitable. I enjoy the serenity of asteroid mining. Start with mining contracts oxp and accumulate enough credits to move on to the ore processor. Tracker oxp is a must too to find all those shards.

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:50 pm

Either way, it's only exploration the 1st time you go there.

That's how exploraton works, right?

Exploration requires an unknown, the rest is about trying to grant searching for the unknown the occasional surprise and indeed reward.

So the surprise would be that the system was communist (if unknown), not that a SLAPU or similar was present (the latter just grants consequence - or at least flavour). This would be possible (but not necessarily desirable) if government type were hidden from f6/f7 as it can be in some exploration themed oxps. I originally referenced Commies (trying) to make a point about variety not equating to saturation.

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:50 pm

Because although there's a LOT of systems in the 8 Galaxy Charts, very few hold secrets even if you installed nearly every OXP and OXZ.

Agreed. However every unknown is a secret of sorts.

If you don't know where you're going then you shouldn't be sure of what you will find. As long as there are sometimes significant consequences to those findings then I think it can be as simple as that. Even if there's just one thing worth finding and it's both suitably rare and you don't know where it can be found then you have exploration.

 New Lasers tried to do something like this... until the locations/answers were plastered over the wiki page
(...partly my own fault for spelling them out in the condition script files).

spara wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:03 pm

And as a personal note, the ore processor makes mining even remotely profitable.

True, it was a poor career choice otherwise.

I thought it was curious that the original elite priced the 'gravy train' that was the cargo bay extension significantly cheaper than the novelty item of the mining laser. Starting with a mining laser instead of a pulse might have been interesting... but then you've covered that as well

Redspear wrote: ↑Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:40 pm

Agreed. However every unknown is a secret of sorts.

If you don't know where you're going then you shouldn't be sure of what you will find. As long as there are sometimes significant consequences to those findings then I think it can be as simple as that. Even if there's just one thing worth finding and it's both suitably rare and you don't know where it can be found then you have exploration.

 New Lasers tried to do something like this... until the locations/answers were plastered over the wiki page
(...partly my own fault for spelling them out in the condition script files).

I see that Norby changed it back in 2017.

Why not just edit it out again? If you need a new wiki password Murgh or I are happy to help....

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:50 am

There is a problem on my AppleMac running two of the map-blanking oxp's: Here be Dragons & Buyable map

Is this also true for Linux? (I'm told that there are also issues with Windows & Here Be Dragons)

I want to have more detailed description of problems with Here be Dragons. Two years ago I was forced to transfer most of my games onto PC. Here be Dragons was running without problems on PC with Windows 10 Home edition. Now I have possibility to test Oolite on iMac with macOS Mojave (10.14.6). Just creating new pilot and jumping from Lave to Leesti. Seems Here be Dragons works correctly.

stranger wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:12 am

I want to have more detailed description of problems with Here be Dragons.

Details are here

Redspear wrote: ↑Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:40 pm

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:50 pm

Either way, it's only exploration the 1st time you go there.

That's how exploraton works, right?

Exploration requires an unknown, the rest is about trying to grant searching for the unknown the occasional surprise and indeed reward.

So the surprise would be that the system was communist (if unknown), not that a SLAPU or similar was present (the latter just grants consequence - or at least flavour). This would be possible (but not necessarily desirable) if government type were hidden from f6/f7 as it can be in some exploration themed oxps. I originally referenced Commies (trying) to make a point about variety not equating to saturation.

It's worth noting that part of the problem is "just another SLAPU" in "just another Communist system". Nothing particularly special about either.

Stations tend to be the only place you can get new assignments/missions. Activities revolve around them.
And it makes quite a bit of sense to put missions starting from secondary (read: OXP/OXZ) stations instead of the main station to reward the explorer.

A particular Communist system might have local goals...that you can get shanghaied/pres-ganged into -- likely 1-time events, but long-term goals may mean those take awhile.
A particular SLAPU station might have need of critical supplies and want to offload other cargo, minor repeatable missions.

Raw credits should not be the only requirement needed to get the best equipment -- already there is a core example of the Naval Energy Unit.
(Nevermind the fact you can buy a ship that's pre-equipped with one if you look long enough.)
Equipment on your ship could also be upgrade-able, some of which might only be available from a very high-tech Communist SLAPU station...and then only if you've met their other special qualifications.
I already have an idea for a particularly annoying piece of equipment that NEEDS to undergo a few upgrades, complete with perhaps a couple in-universe comical issues, ("snipe hunt" product recalls, use warnings, etc...) to be more useful.

I'm only using Communist systems and SLAPU stations as an example.
If anything, a system's government type might change over time...which would be well-fit for a player to have a part in that.
Certain governments might even want to destabilize rival neighbors despite the long-term consequences it has against Thargoids.

Switeck wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:14 pm

Stations tend to be the only place you can get new assignments/missions. Activities revolve around them.
And it makes quite a bit of sense to put missions starting from secondary (read: OXP/OXZ) stations instead of the main station to reward the explorer.

'The Collector' is a very nice hunt to finding some special station. Unfortunately it promises a wealth of missions - yet there is only one.
So what has started as a really good story ends as 'sorry, you reached the end'. Oolite needs more, and more complete such stories.

hiran wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:34 am

Switeck wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:14 pm

Stations tend to be the only place you can get new assignments/missions. Activities revolve around them.
And it makes quite a bit of sense to put missions starting from secondary (read: OXP/OXZ) stations instead of the main station to reward the explorer.

'The Collector' is a very nice hunt to finding some special station. Unfortunately it promises a wealth of missions - yet there is only one.
So what has started as a really good story ends as 'sorry, you reached the end'. Oolite needs more, and more complete such stories.

Should I add this to the Brilliant but broken... list?

'The Collector' doesn't sound broken, it just is only the start of what it claims to be.

Is anyone still maintaining/working on it?

Switeck wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:47 pm

'The Collector' doesn't sound broken, it just is only the start of what it claims to be.

Is anyone still maintaining/working on it?

Mossfoot wrote it and Norby was the maintainer after Mossfoot fled for E:D - and Norby's now retired!

Mossfoot:
Joined: May, 2014
Last active: Nov, 2015