Oolite Bulletins

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:00 am

•A tweakable clock conversion is available via Useful MFDs.oxz (default is set to Selezen's timeline).

I shall investigate. Thanks!

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:00 am

There are other minor issues (all handwaveable or ignorable):
It does not square with Disembodied's theory of instantaneous travel. It also does not square with the game code - the clock working out current time on arrival. Or with the inability to change speed or alter the travel in the tunnel.

Hang on … I don't have a theory of instantaneous travel! I think a ship takes time to move through a wormhole. A 12-hour jump takes 12 hours; the game just fast-forwards the player through this, for obvious reasons. This was entirely for fictional purposes, because I wanted to bottle up my characters and watch them bounce off the walls. I also put together a lot of handwaving to explain why shields don't recharge and lasers don't cool during that time - again, purely for the purposes of fiction.

Cim's fiction (for example), on the other hand, assumes instantaneous travel - because his fictional purpose was to increase the alienation of starship pilots and crew from the rest of the galaxy, using a form of time dilation. He wanted spacers to fall out of sync in time; to remain young while their on-planet families and friends grew old. In Cim's fiction, a 12-hour jump was instantaneous for the ship, but the universe had grown 12 hours older. All those hours add up; spacers and planetsiders drift inexorably apart.

Both options fit what we observe in-game. Both are valid. I will choose to believe what version I want, depending on what mood I'm in. I don't see why we need to establish an overarching "true" version which confirms one and denies the other.

Disembodied wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:01 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:00 am

There are other minor issues (all handwaveable or ignorable):
It does not square with Disembodied's theory of instantaneous travel. It also does not square with the game code - the clock working out current time on arrival. Or with the inability to change speed or alter the travel in the tunnel.

Hang on … I don't have a theory of instantaneous travel! I think a ship takes time to move through a wormhole. A 12-hour jump takes 12 hours; the game just fast-forwards the player through this, for obvious reasons. This was entirely for fictional purposes, because I wanted to bottle up my characters and watch them bounce off the walls. I also put together a lot of handwaving to explain why shields don't recharge and lasers don't cool during that time - again, purely for the purposes of fiction.

Cim's fiction (for example), on the other hand, assumes instantaneous travel - because his fictional purpose was to increase the alienation of starship pilots and crew from the rest of the galaxy, using a form of time dilation. He wanted spacers to fall out of sync in time; to remain young while their on-planet families and friends grew old. In Cim's fiction, a 12-hour jump was instantaneous for the ship, but the universe had grown 12 hours older. All those hours add up; spacers and planetsiders drift inexorably apart.

Both options fit what we observe in-game. Both are valid. I will choose to believe what version I want, depending on what mood I'm in. I don't see why we need to establish an overarching "true" version which confirms one and denies the other.

Agreed. I don't think that we need an overarching system either - unless an OXP demands one. And even then, as with Galactic Navy & HIMSN, one chooses the OXPs one wants if one cares about that sort of thing. But to list the different uses of the terminology and to put the "facts" on the table can only be of benefit to those who wish to take them and write fiction or make an oxp out of them. Plus, it's fun seeing what people have to say about things!

I'm sorry that I got your hypothesis muddled up!

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:52 pm

Plus, it's fun seeing what people have to say about things!

<nods> Aye!

Current Summary:

Hyperspace can be #3 or #4 or #3 & #4 or not used at all
Witchspace can be #3 or #4 or #3 & #4 or not used at all
Interstellar Space can be just #2; or #2 & #4 (common); or #2, 3 & 4 (very rare)

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:17 pm

Current Summary:

Hyperspace can be #3 or #4 or #3 & #4 or not used at all
Witchspace can be #3 or #4 or #3 & #4 or not used at all
Interstellar Space can be just #2; or #2 & #4 (common); or #2, 3 & 4 (very rare)

I'm glad we managed to clear that up


BTW, that's not to belittle your attempts, rather to make light of the gradient of the particular mountain that you're attempting to scale/familiarise yourself with. More power to you!

When jumping from in-system to in-system (and thus experiencing witchspace or hyperspace) something can go wrong and we end up in interstellar space.

When jumping between galaxies, I guess we also experience witchspace or hyperspace, but it seems that never fails? Or would intergalactic space just look like interstellar or in-system, depending whether by chance we found an out-of-galaxy star???

hiran wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:15 pm

When jumping from in-system to in-system (and thus experiencing witchspace or hyperspace) something can go wrong and we end up in interstellar space.

Not necessarily but for the purpose of your point, OK...

hiran wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:15 pm

When jumping between galaxies, I guess we also experience witchspace or hyperspace, but it seems that never fails? Or would intergalactic space just look like interstellar or in-system, depending whether by chance we found an out-of-galaxy star???

Less background stars (star count) maybe?

Redspear wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:21 pm

hiran wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:15 pm

When jumping between galaxies, I guess we also experience witchspace or hyperspace, but it seems that never fails? Or would intergalactic space just look like interstellar or in-system, depending whether by chance we found an out-of-galaxy star???

Less background stars (star count) maybe?

That could be one item if someone wanted to make that difference.

So far I only made 8 galaxy jumps (just to finish the roundtrip and come back).
I never had problems there. Can galaxy jumps fail in first place?

hiran wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:26 pm

Can galaxy jumps fail in first place?

Not in the core game. There is an experimental OXP though.

Just to continue the open can of worms. That is the slimy things found in the ground and used for fishing not the ship type.

Regular Space - Where the stars are and are not. Space within a star system and the space between star systems known as Interstellar Space. Interstellar Space looks different due to its extreme distance from any one specific star. Diffused light and such are perceived with a greenish glow.

Hyperspace - The space inside a stable Wormhole. What you go through to get to another star system within a matter of hours instead of it taking a thousand years. A stable Wormhole is what your Hyperdrive engine creates. Has also been called Witchspace.

Subspace - The very bottom of the can of worms that has yet to be discussed herein. Some may say that Subspace and Hyperspace are the same thing as they are in a certain very popular sci-fi series of TV shows and movies. Methinks that they are two separate domains. Hyperspace is as explained above. Subspace is a much more nebulous thing down to a Quantum Level. This is the sort of place where a particle can exist in two places at the same time even if those two places are on the opposite sides of a Galactic Sector. That may be a way for your instantaneous interstellar communications to take place. Communications data could be passed between two such particles at a Quantum Level while something as complicated and as large as a ship or a person could not. The exact nature of Quantum Physics as it might relate to Subspace is way beyond me. My contribution is to simply pull together some straws from stuff previously read.

Fascinating. << Raising an Eyebrow >>

Nite Owl wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:32 am

Subspace - The very bottom of the can of worms that has yet to be discussed herein. Some may say that Subspace and Hyperspace are the same thing as they are in a certain very popular sci-fi series of TV shows and movies. Methinks that they are two separate domains. Hyperspace is as explained above. Subspace is a much more nebulous thing down to a Quantum Level. This is the sort of place where a particle can exist in two places at the same time even if those two places are on the opposite sides of a Galactic Sector. That may be a way for your instantaneous interstellar communications to take place. Communications data could be passed between two such particles at a Quantum Level while something as complicated and as large as a ship or a person could not. The exact nature of Quantum Physics as it might relate to Subspace is way beyond me. My contribution is to simply pull together some straws from stuff previously read.

Fascinating. << Raising an Eyebrow >>

This subspace thingy might relate to Quantum Entanglement:

Quantum entanglement has been demonstrated experimentally with photons, neutrinos, electrons, molecules as large as buckyballs, and even small diamonds. The utilization of entanglement in communication, computation and quantum radar is a very active area of research and development.

Fascinatingly the star trekkers never mentioned this phenomenon but were able to get advice from their admirals in the base system while being trapped in difficult situations and always had an immediate response.

Just unlike the passenger in Passengers who wanted to complain and sent a message asking for help. The computer responded the message has been transmitted via the communication laser and is expected to arrive in 18 years...

Just my five kopecks to discussion

In real reality we have only one type of space. Difference between intersolar and intrasolar space is only matter of balance between pressure of solar wind and galactic magnetic field. Inside astrosphere (heliosphere in particular case of our Sun) we have hypersonic flow of stellar wind prevailing over interstellar medium, outside astrosphere we have prevailing galactic magnetic field and undisturbed interstellar medium.
In game reality we have no true space containing all 256 local systems. We have set of isolated locations centered around 256 stars (technically, every location is centered around witchpoint, not around sun nor main planet). And we have set of interstellar locations centered around middle points on lines, connecting local systems (or middle points on lines, connecting opened interstellar location with local systems in 7 LY radius, in case of multiple aborted jumps). There are no ways in game to travel between these locations besides wormholes. So it is matter of discussion to interpret interstellar space as normal space or some exotic another space.
Well.
Arguments for unique nature of interstellar space (interstellar space is hyperspace)
1. It is not possible to reach interstellar space flying away from sun in normal space.
2. Greenish tint of stars and nebulae.
Seems argument No 1 is not working. It is not possible to reach neighbor system at 0.1 LY by normal ways too! Does it means that Universe consists of bubbles of normal space, containing only one local system and separated by hyperspace? It will be too hard to match such radical concept with modern scientific knowledge.
Arguments for casual nature of interstellar space (interstellar space is just another set of locations in normal space)
Sometimes we can see generation ships in interstellar space. OK, these ships may be off-course from their relic interstellar lanes and stranded in hyperspace by unknown reasons like Thargoids making trap wormholes etc. But personally I prefer reasons based on Occam’s razor.
So interstellar space is normal space and the only difference between interstellar locations and local systems is lack of sun and main planet (technically you can place other objects like minor planets and moons in interstellar locations, right?).
If interstellar space is normal space, there is only one remaining situation. Hyperspace is space in wormhole tunnel. This space has unique property – it allows only one-directional movement along the tunnel axis. Seems this is physical limitation, not just technical like travel in tunnel with established one way road. You can’t stop in tunnel and inverse movement, you can’t change travel time. Travel time in wormhole between local system is function of distance between these systems in power two, not ship velocity etc.
Witchspace is not technical term with fixed meaning. It is just informal and fussy word for any space outside local system. Some people can use this jargon word for hyperspace in wormhole tunnel, some for interstellar space, some for both cases.

In brief:

Local space – normal space, reachable using Torus drive.
Interstellar space – normal space, unreachable using Torus drive due to technical limitations or some physical reasons, but reachable by aborted jumps
Hyperspace – space in wormhole tunnel.
Witchspace – jargon word for any space outside local space.

Is travel in wormhole instantaneous?
We have two possible interpretations.
1. Travel is instantaneous for player, but takes time for local systems. Ship clock is resetting to system time on exit from wormhole tunnel.
2. Travel via wormhole really takes time for player. Ship clock is resetting due to evident game reasons.
Methinks both interpretations are lore consistent. In game you have no simulated basic primary needs. Instant travel between system using wormhole, half hour or so flight to main station, several minutes to refuel, unload and load cargo, start and ready for next jump. You have no any need to leave ship being docked – all service is available using on-board screens F3, F4 and F8. In real reality or in fanfic reality you’ll need time to needs like sleep, rest, food, drink, social relax and sometimes sex. It is your lore. According to Pilot’s Reference Manual to the Cobra Mk III your ship has living section with sleeping, relax and hygiene areas. So you can relax during long 25 hour flight between systems separated by 5 LY. Are you really need such luxury suite for short but dangerous flight from witchpoint to main station, if travel via wormhole is instantaneous? On the other hand, main station is not just docks and stores. It is main traffic hub of local system with offices, shops, bars and recreation zones and you can spend some of your time to make business, relax and meet other people on station.

And the next question. Is physical nature of wormholes, connecting eight sectors, is same as “usual” wormholes, connecting local systems? It looks the same, but in case of travel between local systems A and B you can jump from A to B and immediately create wormhole from B to A. In case of travel between Sector 1 and Sector 2 you have no such possibility.
So returning to nature of sectors:
Are all 8 sectors just distant regions in the same normal space?
Or maybe sectors are 8 layers of more complex type of space with additional dimensions?
Any ideas?

stranger wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:49 am

... but in case of travel between local systems A and B you can jump from A to B and immediately create wormhole from B to A. In case of travel betwen Sector 1 and Sector 2 you have no such possibility.

Also, no time passes during an inter-octant jump (according to the ship's clock) - very strange, is that.

stranger wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:49 am

So returning to nature of sectors: Are all 8 sectors just distant regions in the same normal space?
Or maybe sectors are 8 layers of more complex type of space with additional dimensions?
Any ideas?

The former. Already posted my ideas re the octants elsewhere.

Just returning to the Witchspace/interstellar space nomenclature:

If interstellar space is just bog-standard interstellar space, then not only why is it green with those bizarre clouds, but also, why can't I see the nebulae and also why is it riddled with Thargoids?

I really can't conceive of it as interstellar space at all. And I really don't see how anybody else can, either.