Oolite Bulletins

The discussion above is a trifle too complex for my understanding (not being a programmer, and with no understanding of the coding entrails of the game).

Is this quote correct: Extra Energy Units with improved efficiency to standard units can be purchased... (from http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Energy ... o_the_best)?

It seems to imply that the EEU is a better Energy Bank than the regular 4 Energy Banks that the ship came with.

But my current understanding is that the EEU adds on to the current Energy Unit inside my cobra (which presumably feeds the Energy Banks from the Main Engine), thus enhancing their recharge rate.

I'd rather like to understand this before I edit the relevant wiki pages!

Thank you.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:16 am

Is this quote correct...

Yeah, pretty much. The stock Cobra MKIII has four energy banks (mine has five), and the better the energy unit, the faster your energy banks will recharge. The EEU doesn't replace energy banks. Your current understanding is correct.


Now I need coffee! <worships at the shrine of the caffeine goddess>

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:16 am

The discussion above is a trifle too complex for my understanding (not being a programmer, and with no understanding of the coding entrails of the game).

The naval energy unit multiplies your recharge rate with 2.6. The extra energy unit multiplies your recharge rate by 1.8. If you have both, it will be multiplied with 3.4 = (1.0 + (2.6 - 1.0) + (1.8 - 1.0)). That's at least what I believe is happening (can you even have the extra energy unit while also having a naval energy unit?).

tsoj wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:25 pm

...can you even have the extra energy unit while also having a naval energy unit?.

I've always thought that the NEU replaces the EEU. Any boffins about?

Cody wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:51 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:16 am

Is this quote correct...

Yeah, pretty much. The stock Cobra MKIII has four energy banks (mine has five), and the better the energy unit, the faster your energy banks will recharge. The EEU doesn't replace energy banks. Your current understanding is correct.


Now I need coffee! <worships at the shrine of the caffeine goddess>

tsoj wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:25 pm

The naval energy unit multiplies your recharge rate with 2.6. The extra energy unit multiplies your recharge rate by 1.8. If you have both, it will be multiplied with 3.4 = (1.0 + (2.6 - 1.0) + (1.8 - 1.0)). That's at least what I believe is happening (can you even have the extra energy unit while also having a naval energy unit?).

Thank you, gentlemen!

Layne argues that the EEU & NEU are exclusive (and that the proof is in the game code): https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.ph ... 13#p242613 (2015).

Cody wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:30 pm

I've always thought that the NEU replaces the EEU. Any boffins about?

Apprentice boffin here.

According to the shipdata.plist the two are incompatible, which combined with...

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:36 pm

Layne argues that the EEU & NEU are exclusive (and that the proof is in the game code): https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.ph ... 13#p242613 (2015).

...and the fact the the NEU recharge is double that of the EEU, would suggest replacement to me.

I did enquire about this specifically recently but without reply (as yet).

Confirmed...
The EEU is removed before the NEU is awarded and the aforementioned equipment.plist (I mistakenly said shipdata.plist in my last post) restriction prevents you from purchasing a new one.

So it's one or the other but not both.

Returning to the question about the role of the EEU and the main drive/engine!

dybal wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:22 pm

The default model, as I see it, would be:

Energy generators -> accumulators (energy banks) -> shields

Extra Energy Unit and Naval Energy Unit are generators, which imply that engines aren't, and there are core game ships with low energy generation and high speed, like the Sidewinder Scout Ship.

In the core game, engines (cruising and Torus, not fuel injectors or wormhole generators) and energy generators are perpetual-motion devices, they work for free.

Now, if you run HardWay OXP, the model changes:

fuel -> energy generators -> energy banks -> shields
fuel -> engines (cruising, Torus and fuel injectors)

If you run out of fuel, you get into emergency mode, running on batteries, and when you run out of stored energy, booom!

So Dybal understand there to be two perpetual motion machines (pmm's), the engine, and the energy generator.

There would seem to be three possible models on offer:

1) Dybal's dual perpetual motion machine. The EEU is now a third such pmm.
2) My assumption (based on Stranger's World): it is the engine that creates the energy which feeds the energy banks, and the EEU is either an independent power source (a second pmm) - or also feeds off the engine in some way.
3) The third logical possibility that the original Energy Unit/Generator both drives the engine and supplies the energy banks. The EEU only feeds the energy banks, and is a second pmm.

I presume that the game coding does not help clarify the issue (Why should it?).

Following Ockham's razor (entities - especially imaginary ones - should not be multiplied without necessity), I think that the second version of the second theory makes most sense. It also seems compatible (to me, at first glance) with both Stranger's HardWay model, and with Phkb's Ship Configuration OXP.

Any comments?

Edited to show that my assumption is based on Stranger's World

Basic Handwavium Premise: The Perpetual Motion Machine that is a ship's drive engine generates Heat.

That Heat needs to go somewhere lest the ship go boom. The Perpetual Motion Machine takes in stuff from space (Dark Matter, Hydrogen, anything else you might prefer). This stuff is then ignited in a combustion chamber resulting in a highly unstable plasma. This burning plasma is then expelled out through a ship's engine ports into the cold void of space in order to drive a ship forward. The greater the speed of a ship at a given moment the greater the amount of plasma generated hence the change in the size, shape, and color of the exhaust plume. It is that ignition/burning process that leads to the excess Heat that needs to be expelled from a ship.

The Extra Energy Unit and the Naval Energy Unit are advanced types of Thermoelectric Generators. These two items recycle a small portion of the excess heat that the Perpetual Motion Machine generates and converts that heat into energy. This converted heat energy then recharges the Energy Banks and, in turn, the Shields, and every other energy consuming device that a ship might be equipped with. The Naval Energy Unit can handle more heat and energy per second then the Extra Energy Unit so is capable of a higher recharge rate.

For something even more powerful and faster than the Naval Energy Unit one needs to look at the Eco Reactor from Norby's ECO LASERS. Highly recommended for the side mounts of your ship.

Nite Owl wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:29 pm

The Perpetual Motion Machine takes in stuff from space (Dark Matter, Hydrogen, anything else you might prefer).

To quote Giles: phlogiston!

I don't think you need Perpetual Motion Machines … a small tokamak fusion reactor would do the trick. OK, it does technically use fuel, but in such minute quantities that it would be needlessly petty to account for it. A kilo of deuterium and tritium would be enough to keep a ship going for at least a decade or two. The EEU and NEU increase the reactor output by augmenting the tokamak's magnetic pinch-field with a system of rotating monopoles. The EEU has two, and the NEU has eight; obviously, you can't run these both simultaneously, or the whole assemblage would fly apart. This sort of failure is known as an EBVN event - Exciting, Brief, and Very Noisy.

I like that!

Disembodied wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:56 am

… a small tokamak fusion reactor...

Which is toroidal, of course.

It's also notable that, when ships are in a very low-energy state, they start leaking plasma from their engine nacelles. Obviously this is because the magnetic bottle is unable to keep the plasma properly contained within the torus, and it has to be ejected into space. When the energy levels come back up, the bottle stabilises and the plasma leak is curtailed.

Excellent! [twangin' guitars] That's torus drives, energy units, and blowing plasma sorted. What's next?

(I know the last post here is almost a year old but I wanted to add to the discussion)

Disembodied wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:56 am

A kilo of deuterium and tritium would be enough to keep a ship going for at least a decade or two.

The year in the game is 3000 or so. I think mankind would have hydrogen-hydrogen fusion figured out by then. So let's say the tokamak you mentioned here burns hydrogen. That could keep the ship going for a half of century (hydrogen-hydrogen gives about 2.5 times more energy - instead of 5 nucleons only 2 nucleons are consumed per reaction and the energy coming out of the reaction is roughly the same) more. And even if I am wrong and H-H fusion isn't much more energetic than D-T fusion it doesn't, a decade or two is plenty.

Disembodied wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:56 am

I don't think you need Perpetual Motion Machines … a small tokamak fusion reactor would do the trick. OK, it does technically use fuel, but in such minute quantities that it would be needlessly petty to account for it.

Here is how to account for it: The witchdrive tank refueling pipe has a system attached to it that extracts hydrogen from the fuel passing through and diverts it into the tokamak. If you are scooping fuel, the fuel scoop grabs some hydrogen along with the quirium. If you refuel at the station, the fuel in the station has hydrogen added to it. Or the "natural quirium" obtained by anyone is actually 99% quirium and 1% hydrogen. Some of that hydrogen is thus diverted into the tokamak according to its need.

I don't expect anyone will try and spend a decade out of a station. With an empty witchdrive fuel tank. Because if the witchdrive fuel tank is NOT empty, the tokamak would be able to grab additional hydrogen out of it and instead of decade, you would need a century (or more) to run out of.

And maybe even with no fuel scoop. Because there actually is plenty of hydrogen out there. Even in interstellar space (if you can convince the bugs to leave you alone for that long that is). The fuel scoop could be scooping that hydrogen for your tokamak without your knowledge or permission .

Or your shields could. Then even no scoop would help you in your quest to run out of normal fuel.

So here you go. No "petty accounting of minuscule amounts of fuel" needed.

Thargoids use fuel with much more hydrogen than humans do. This is what is meant by "diluted fuel". While in theory it could be refined on a ship in flight by heating the gas to incandescence and then blowing the superheated gas through the fuel scoop to let it grab the mixture the ship wants and let the excess hydrogen fly away, in practice heating quirium in any amounts in the microgravity environment of space isn't among things you do if you want to keep your ship in one piece .

Disembodied wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:56 am

The EEU and NEU increase the reactor output by augmenting the tokamak's magnetic pinch-field with a system of rotating monopoles. The EEU has two, and the NEU has eight; obviously, you can't run these both simultaneously, or the whole assemblage would fly apart. This sort of failure is known as an EBVN event - Exciting, Brief, and Very Noisy.

For those who might not understand, the problem isn't having 10 monopoles messing with the tokamak magnetic pinch-field, it is having two different devices messing with the tokamak magnetic pinch-field from two different places. That is bound to desynchronize and once desynchronized, you get that EBVN event. It is perfectly OK to use 10 monopoles - if you can maintain your grip on them. The blasted things don't like to stay close together. The only problem is that the current state of the art military technology (read: the best that is available to anyone) can barely maintain a reasonable hold of 8.