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Who are we to say that one must try out the basic game first?

I have been struggling to formulate this in a constructive manner for the past days. Tried 4 times at least.
For me, it is in complete contradiction with one of the mottos of Oolite that I have found hard to accept at first and then progressively considered as a pillar of the game and community success, namely that each player may play as they like best and consequently that nobody may assume anything about another player game.

Yet, as Smivs says,

'We' are a large group of experienced players who genuinely believe that learning the basic game before tinkering with it is the best way to ensure that everybody gets the best out of the game, and can then make informed choices about what changes to make to it. We are also the people who repeatedly have to step in to sort out problems, queries and disasters that novices experience by not following this advice!
Many people appreciate the benefits of 'Expert Advice', so I feel this should be prominent. It can then be taken or ignored as the user chooses, but if the good advice is not freely and obviously available it could be missed or overlooked even by those who really want or need it.

So I would propose we say "Experienced players recommend" rather than "We recommend".

Redspear wrote:

- The game works fine without oxps and we recommend you try that first.
- Many oxps can dramatically affect your game and so we suggest installing and experiencing them one at a time.
- oxps are 'fan made' and more likely to be buggy than the core game itself.
- Most have a wiki page and/or bb thread that you might like to investigate prior to installing.

This short version is a good thing, If Smivs put into the begin of the first post then increase the chance to read at least this part and also more to read the details.
I would like to see a summary in the game also.

Wildeblood wrote:

There are 2^300 possible combinations of OXZs

I am far less optimist in the number of collections (at least within a year) due to need some work to make one and most people won't go through the boring parts. Until there are a few only in a category then you can simply skip these, when will be dozens then worth a new category or even a separated list in the manager imho.

Wildeblood wrote:

I dislike "metapackage" as a word.

Thanks, now I replaced to "collection" in my tags.

spara wrote:

I'm more worried about metapackages that inject recommendations lists into the game via the manager.

The "optional" type will be a good solution imho. Cim recently answered positively to my pm about a new filter to list and select one by one from optional dependencies of a package.

Did anybody also mention to warn the new players about save game compatibility issues? (this should become a category by itself, IMHO). Something like the warnings the core game devs are putting in when changes lead to having new game version saves not supported in the old game version.
Just calling some OX[ZP]s as (possible) cheats is fair, but once the save game *is* a "cheat" without that expansion, then I guess the user should at least be warned. While there is a note somewhere regarding notepad(++)ing your save game for money, is there any knowledge base of which/what expansion packs might render their save file a cheat for the core game?

Commander_X wrote:

Did anybody also mention to warn the new players about save game compatibility issues? (this should become a category by itself, IMHO). Something like the warnings the core game devs are putting in when changes lead to having new game version saves not supported in the old game version.
Just calling some OX[ZP]s as (possible) cheats is fair, but once the save game *is* a "cheat" without that expansion, then I guess the user should at least be warned. While there is a note somewhere regarding notepad(++)ing your save game for money, is there any knowledge base of which/what expansion packs might render their save file a cheat for the core game?

Almost all effects of an expansion pack will disappear without permanent effect once it's removed [1]. Money and kill count that you might not otherwise have got is about all that will remain, and I can't think of many OXPs which make those particularly easy to obtain for a novice player compared with what someone really focusing on fastest money and kills could do just in core.

[1] Obviously if you remove a ship OXP while you are currently flying that ship your game won't load until you reinstall it, but I don't think anyone so far has had difficulty with that limitation, and the game does make it easy to diagnose.

Thank you for the clarification, cim, mea culpa! Due to the warning about the handcrafting the save game files, I was under the impression that there might be some packs "in the wild" that do that.
I am glad to hear that the expansion API doesn't allow this type of mistake.

Day wrote:

Who are we to say that one must try out the basic game first?

I have been struggling to formulate this in a constructive manner for the past days. Tried 4 times at least.
For me, it is in complete contradiction with one of the mottos of Oolite that I have found hard to accept at first and then progressively considered as a pillar of the game and community success, namely that each player may play as they like best and consequently that nobody may assume anything about another player game.

...

So I would propose we say "Experienced players recommend" rather than "We recommend".

Good point there...

I think whatever we say (if anything) should be kept light in both tone and detail.
'Many of us recommend' is more true than 'we recommend', and also less suggestive of some sort of scary hive mind

A little something along the lines of, 'Whilst this may be the safest strategy to installing expansion packs it is by no means the only one. Oxps/zs can add a lot to the game and we hope they provide you with many hours of entertainment.' Should keep things friendly for newbies and respectful with regards to other approaches.

A note mentioning shader-capable graphics card requirement would be useful too.

I installed Oolite 1.82 on a 10-years old laptop (LXLE linux) and tried a compilation expansion. I forgot that the poor machine had not shader support, and auto-downloaded more than 100MB to realize that it doesn't work. (Where is that cone-shaped hat of mine?!?)

Thanks chaps. Some good thoughts there, and I have now updated the first post again to incorporate some of the suggestions.
I have not made any mention of shader-capability though, as I don't feel it is directly relevant to this subject. However it is a very good point and I hope that more OXP authors will consider this when drafting summaries, readmes, wiki pages etc.

Redspear wrote:

Good point there...

I think whatever we say (if anything) should be kept light in both tone and detail.
'Many of us recommend' is more true than 'we recommend', and also less suggestive of some sort of scary hive mind

A little something along the lines of, 'Whilst this may be the safest strategy to installing expansion packs it is by no means the only one. Oxps/zs can add a lot to the game and we hope they provide you with many hours of entertainment.' Should keep things friendly for newbies and respectful with regards to other approaches.

Thank you to have expressed this better than I could

Day wrote:

Thank you to have expressed this better than I could

Glad to be of help

Ok, I've been playing about a week so I couldn't be much noobier, so I figured I'd post my experience with OXP/Zs and give you all a noob's perspective as it (more or less) happens:

I'm probably not typical, in that I actually followed most of the recommendations you've made before I ever stumbled onto this thread. I played the base game for a few days to get the feel of it before I started mucking about with expansions. When I first looked in the expansion manager, one of the 'recommended collections' caught my eye, but more in a cautionary way. Looking at the details, I realised that I wasn't interested in most of the oxps in the package, and concluded (correctly, I think) that I'd be better off looking everything over individually. I didn't want to put too much of a dent in the game mechanics, so the first few I installed were ambiance packages, none of which gave me any problems. Mostly I've been adding them in ones and twos after checking the wiki or forum. (Off topic, but the OXP manager could display a bit more info, IMHO.) I did have a minor issue with 'Additional Planets SR' because I only downloaded the 'gas giants' textures at first. When nothing seemed to happen, I went digging in the forums (no wiki article! Boo! ) and found a thread that mentioned that without enough textures, some planets wouldn't be created. Screw it, I wanted ambiance, and I've got HD space to burn so I downloaded the rest of the texture packs, and it's been feckin' beautiful ever since! The only pack I had a problem with was one of the marketplace ones, (I don't recall the name, but it split the price into buy/sell columns) the prices seemed to stay the same wherever I went. (As an honourary member in good standing of the Ferengi Commerce Board, I was shocked, shocked I say, that I couldn't make an honest swindle, er, profit.) So I uninstalled it, problem solved. I did consciously decide to install hypercargo, because I'm patient enough to work to buy a new ship without outright cheating, but doubling the space in my hold is a plausible way to speed things along a bit. I'm still flying my original Cobra, but I've almost got enough for a Python, and with it, I should be able to get a Boa Clipper in a short time. I'm not much for combat at the moment, I'm just shippin' computers and furs and exploring galaxy 1, outrunning the pirates and seeing the sights.

So, as I see it, the recommendations you've made are pretty good, common-sense suggestions, and should be posted in a prominent place. As far as 'collections' go, I think there ought to be at least an 'ambiance' collection for noobs just to pretty things up. There's always going to be people looking for shortcuts, or for other people to make up their minds for them. (In my FB bass group, for instance, there's always noobs asking "What's the best bass/strings/amp/speakers/pedals, etc?" and a constant stream of replies saying, basically "No such thing, it all depends on your individual playing style/genre/goals, etc.") The problem with the existing collections seems to be that they're rather eclectic, with a whole range of oxp's based on the collector's personal preferences, rather than anything objective. To you guys who've been around a while, 'X's recommended oxps' might seem a good collection, because you know who 'X' is, but to noobs like me? Not so much. I suggest that a method be devised for the community to assemble, review, and publish oxp collections with specific themes, such as the aforementioned 'ambiance' collection with no gameplay impact, just beautification; A 'trader' collection, with hypercargo and other goodies for traders; An 'explorer' pack, with additional planets, giant space pizzas, stations for extra planets, etc.; A 'pirate' pack; A 'mining' pack; etc. Detailed descriptions of each should be made readily available so noobs like me could get a firm grasp of what's included and what the impact will be. The wiki's pretty good, but some entries are a bit sparse or missing entirely.

Cheers, I gotta go unload my cargo now.

BosunBob wrote:

there ought to be at least an 'ambiance' collection for noobs just to pretty things up.

Thank you for your notes. The goal of Ambience Collection is exactly this and I recently removed those packages where there are any reasons why should be added later only.

BosunBob wrote:

you know who 'X' is, but to noobs like me?

This is necessary to flag that this is not a general advice but a personal one. The space for the title is too short to say everything (like Addons for competent commanders in the view of X) so I use the description to clarify the details.

Your suggested collections are good imho, just I do not want to take the job to lead the discussion about which packs should be in these (maintain a beginner and a competent collection is enough for me), maybe others will do.

Norby wrote:

The space for the title is too short to say everything (like Addons for competent commanders in the view of X) so I use the description to clarify the details.

Yes, I understand that the oxp manager is limited in what it can display. I just honestly don't see the need for collections of other players' personal preferences, really. I'm not saying that some people might not want to emulate other players, but it really doesn't interest me. Every collection of that sort I've seen so far, either in the oxp manager or just suggested on wiki/forum pages, I'd still have to delete half or more of things from the collection, and install other oxps I actually want. So I just chose individually. I do see your point about having collections appear first on the oxp list since, as you say, tripping across a collection after you've installed half of it would be annoying.

Norby wrote:

Your suggested collections are good imho, just I do not want to take the job to lead the discussion about which packs should be in these. . .

Well, I can see some of the more obvious things that would be included for different 'careers' in the game. Pirates and Bounty Hunters would want weapons and tactical-type upgrades, Traders would want more cargo space, shields and speed, Miners would want whatever miners want. . . and that's where my noobishness becomes a liability, because I've not tried everything in the game yet, and my knowledge of the available oxps is still sketchy, at best. If none of the old-timers want to, I'm willing to lead the discussion, but other than keeping things moving and occasionally throwing in my inexperienced 2 cents, I don't know that I'd be able to contribute much.