Oolite Bulletins

For a sneak preview here is my currently very personal and unfinished competent list.

Redspear wrote:

Smivs wrote:

I was thinking about this the other day when I had to page through nearly the whole list to find an OXZ I was looking for. I wondered then if there was a possible solution? There is - Have the first page as an index of the categories. I don't know how difficult this would be to do of course.

Likewise, I don't know how easy but it sounds good to me.

1.82 allows filtering of the list based on author, title, tag, keyword, updated in the last 'x' days etc. Surely one should be able to reduce the volume of the list using this.

another_commander wrote:

1.82 allows filtering of the list based on author, title, tag, keyword, updated in the last 'x' days etc. Surely one should be able to reduce the volume of the list using this.

Fair point. It's been a while since I used it...

spara wrote:

I'm not too hot about compilations either, but I'm sure there are people out there that will enjoy these. For clarity, I think we should have a new category for these: "Compilations".

I could add this, though I'm not sure if it's necessary. For example, if Povray Planets was OXZd, then a "compilation" package to install all eight galaxies would be reasonable - but would probably still belong in "Ambience" along with the eight packages it installed.

Conversely, for OXZs making changes across a range of areas of the game - Ambience, Equipment, Missions, Mechanics, etc. - the existing Systems category has been used in the past for individual OXPs, and I don't see that it matters that much whether the components are built monolithically into the OXP or installed using dependency management for that purpose. "Systems" to be read in the "Game Systems" rather than "Star Systems" sense, though many of the OXPs already in the category could be read either way of course.

Smivs wrote:

I was thinking about this the other day when I had to page through nearly the whole list to find an OXZ I was looking for. I wondered then if there was a possible solution?

In 1.82, go to filter mode, and type in a few characters of the name into a keyword filter. Select the OXZ from the now much shorter list.

Smivs wrote:

Naming and categorizing something to ensure it is on the First Page is a bit cheeky at best.

Anyone want to change their OXP name to "Aardvarks in Space"?

More seriously, I'm not particularly comfortable with an OXP regardless of content named "Addons for Beginners" - if someone else disagrees with that list [1] and wants to make their own, should they name their OXP "Beginners' Addons", or "The Beginners's Front of Addons", or "Aardvarks Amazing Addons for Apprentices" ... or indeed just also call it "Addons for Beginners" and let the beginners work out which one is which themselves?

[1] At least two of the OXPs on it have the potential to break or interact strangely with core features in subtle but unpleasant ways, and one of the others will either do that or do nothing depending on what other OXPs are installed.

cim wrote:

another_commander wrote:

Smivs wrote:

I was thinking about this the other day when I had to page through nearly the whole list to find an OXZ I was looking for. I wondered then if there was a possible solution?

1.82 allows filtering of the list based on author, title, tag, keyword, updated in the last 'x' days etc. Surely one should be able to reduce the volume of the list using this.

In 1.82, go to filter mode, and type in a few characters of the name into a keyword filter. Select the OXZ from the now much shorter list.

Ah, I'd never noticed that feature before - probably too busy breaking and mending things - very useful though. Thanks.

At least two of the OXPs on it have the potential to break or interact strangely with core features in subtle but unpleasant ways, and one of the others will either do that or do nothing depending on what other OXPs are installed

Err... I play with most oxz installed and then some. Which would be those you allude to?

cim wrote:

named "Addons for Beginners"

The reason why I can not name it to "Addons for Beginners collected by Norby" is the short space for names in the manager, so I put the second part into the first line of the description. When will be another attempt to make a similar collection then we can talk about extending the name.

Day wrote:

cim wrote:

At least two of the OXPs on it have the potential to break or interact strangely with core features

Which would be those you allude to?

I asked the same in pm and these are Torus To Sun, Total Patrol and Variable Masslock. Yes, these modify rules to reach the described goals so you should decide to want these changes or not. These can help to a new player so I put into the collection, then anybody can override by removing after installation.

If we talk about possible problems then imho this is true in Variable Masslock only. This must change the scanClass of ships to buoy to avoid masslock within scanner range so while these are in the far part of scanner and alert is green then missed by codes not prepared to this anomaly when scan for ships. But "reality is restored" in all ships right when the first ship arrive into masslock range (~4/5 scanner range) so the effect is temporary.

Just my opinion of course, but I would not recommend any "hack" types of OXPs to beginners. Meaning OXPs that need to stretch the game rules to achieve something. These always have potential of unforeseen consequences. For beginners I would stick to eye-candy only.

You have also linked your ambiances package into the oxp and that pulls in more game changing elements. For example Realistic Stars moves the sun farther which looks nice, but at the same time changes the lengths of the lanes. TorusToSun is probably in to overcome that, but it does not really help NPCs. As just one example of a possibly unforeseen consequence is that the LANE_WPS parameter in the populator is weighted with lane lengths.

The idea of a beginners list is not bad, but the OXPs included should not be numerous and should be selected with great care. I would like to think the selection as a teaser to lure the new player into the world of OXPs. Now I strongly feel that the list has way too many potentially game changing OXPs.

spara wrote:

For beginners I would stick to eye-candy only.

Absolutely this. The most important thing for a beginner is to learn how to play the game, so anything which changes the core game really should be avoided, not encouraged. No reason why it shouldn't look good though

One other thing to note here is this: You cannot expect new users to just remove expansions that change the game too much if they want, for the simple reason that they are not in position to determine by how much the game has been changed due to a given expansion. Whatever they see is what they will assume as standard game behaviour and will never know that an OXP was the reason for it, unless they ask here. So basically you restrict them to a set of game rules that may or may not be what is originally intended and this uncertainty, combined with the new users' ignorance of the actual rules, is in my opinion, exactly the opposite of what you want them to experience.

Norby wrote:

I asked the same in pm and these are Torus To Sun, Total Patrol and Variable Masslock. Yes, these modify rules to reach the described goals so you should decide to want these changes or not. These can help to a new player so I put into the collection, then anybody can override by removing after installation.

If we talk about possible problems then imho this is true in Variable Masslock only. This must change the scanClass of ships to buoy to avoid masslock within scanner range so while these are in the far part of scanner and alert is green then missed by codes not prepared to this anomaly when scan for ships. But "reality is restored" in all ships right when the first ship arrive into masslock range (~4/5 scanner range) so the effect is temporary.

Thank you, I have some un-userfriendly behaviours in masslock recently. I'll try without Variable Masslock, and probably Torus To Sun.

I am happy to read this many thought, thank you all. Let's see the packages and discuss one by one.

After these general advices I still don't think that only eye candy can fit into this collection so if you think I am wrong regarding a specific package then please tell me, I would like to see all arguments.

[wiki]Ambiences[/wiki] I will make a smaller set based on your advices what we can discuss further.

[wiki]Combat Simulator[/wiki] I think no problem with this, even if a beginner think this is a part of the game.

[wiki]ETT Homing Beacon[/wiki] similarly I don't see any reason why we negate beginners to put down beacons.

[wiki]ILS[/wiki] this is really made for beginners but can help a lot and there is a risk to think this is a vital part of the game so now I think to remove and put into another collection later.

[wiki]Market Inquirer[/wiki] I think the problems are similar with ILS, so move also.

[wiki]Miner Cobra[/wiki] this is not a ship but a different carreer in my eyes. I think Start Choices is too much for a new player, especially a harder start need competent pilot, but this is designed as an alternative living even for harmless commanders. Please describe if you think something against.

[wiki]Neo-Docklights[/wiki] an useful eye candy, especially without ILS so I think to keep in.

[wiki]Lave Academy[/wiki] a mission for beginners, should leave in imho.

[wiki]Target Autolock[/wiki] I can imagine this as a part of the main game and a small help only so I think to leave in.

[wiki]Tionisla Reporter[/wiki] a mission for beginners, why not.

[wiki]Torus To Sun[/wiki] this is a realtime-saver due to beginners probably can't use TAF. There is a similar feature in the core so this is just an increased and controllable version. The question: some time compression is a bad thing for a new player (so move out) or a help to shorten boring parts (so stay in). But Realistic Stars which move the sun very far is removed from the Ambience Collection so Torus To Sun is not needed here anymore. Moved to optional and recommended in the competent collection with Realistic Stars.

[wiki]Traffic Control[/wiki] textual help in landing for beginners. No problem if stay in imho.

[wiki]Reverse Control[/wiki] this is a wanted "fix" by beginners right when realize the aim is hard in the aft view. Regardless of new players will think that the aft aim is normal by default I think the discussed "learn this skill later" is a better way so I suggest to keep in and set a conflict in the competent collection. What do you think?

[wiki]Ring Racer[/wiki] activity for beginners, why not.

[wiki]Safety Catch[/wiki] no problem if somebody think this is a part of the game imho.

[wiki]The Collector[/wiki] a mission for beginners also.

[wiki]Total patrol[/wiki] more police give more safe secondary lanes for beginners but falsely think this is a part of the game so move out.

[wiki]Variable Masslock[/wiki] similar with ILS so move out, a bad news for beginners but at least alert levels are less complicated.

[wiki]Welcome Mat[/wiki] a harmless addition imho so keep in.

Edits: wiki links added, "set a conflict" removed due to cim's notice below and Torus To Sun removed because Realistic stars is moved out also.

I really can't put OXPs in any other order than what I like to use and what not, so I'll not go into detail what I think should be in and what not. Instead I would like to ask if there really is need for this. Don't get me wrong, I can see that you have done some hard thinking what would be suitable OXPs for novice or and what not. But instead of outright installing a preselected bunch, which I don't think a novice will examine in detail before installing, I think that Smivs' earlier effort of giving beginners a list from which to choose from is better. From a list there's a bigger chance that a beginner has some clue what he/she is installing and how it will change the game.

Norby wrote:

so I suggest to keep in and set a conlfilct in the competent collection.

As an implementation note, the way conflicts are processed by the dependency manager means this probably isn't a good idea. I wouldn't recommend either setting conflicts on a metapackage or setting other OXPs to conflict with one.

Reason: if OXP A declares a conflict on OXP B, and both are installed, then at OXP loading time A will not be loaded. (If A and B declare mutual conflicts on each other, then one of them will be loaded but it's arbitrary which and may due to filesystem details differ between installs)

Setting a conflict on a pure metapackage will stop the metapackage being loaded at run time (which won't make any difference) but won't stop any of its components being loaded or automatically downloaded. There'll just be the conflict note on the main menu, that's all.

another_commander wrote:

One other thing to note here is this: You cannot expect new users to just remove expansions that change the game too much if they want, for the simple reason that they are not in position to determine by how much the game has been changed due to a given expansion. Whatever they see is what they will assume as standard game behaviour and will never know that an OXP was the reason for it, unless they ask here. So basically you restrict them to a set of game rules that may or may not be what is originally intended and this uncertainty, combined with the new users' ignorance of the actual rules, is in my opinion, exactly the opposite of what you want them to experience.

So, by extension, the beginner shouldn't really be installing any oxps at all...

May depend upon one's definition of 'the rules' or 'too much' of course but even oxps in seemingly 'innocent' categories such as 'ambience' and 'retextures' can change things quite a bit. Distant Suns, Star Jellies, Neolites (those FdLs...). Whereas purely cosmetic oxps are a matter of personal taste and probably better employed once you know what you'd be 'missing'.

So 'manage expansion packs' is a bit of a double-edged sword for the beginner in that there it is, right before you start your first game.

I've hardly used 1.82 yet but if you click on an oxz's URL (within the manager) are you directed to the relevant wiki page/bb thread? That would help IMO.