Oolite Bulletins

Diziet Sma wrote:

Smivs wrote:

Capitalism has been around pretty much since money was invented. It was only recognised and named much more recently.

Sorry mate.. but you're very, very wrong. My guess is that, as with most people, your definition of Capitalism is extremely sloppy. But that's ok.. Capitalists like people doing that (heck, their own books encourage it), as it puts them onside, thinking they're Capitalists too, when they're actually not.

@ Day.. yes, you're close.. but even the shareholder part of it isn't fundamental.

Please tell more

I guess pivotal to the rise of capitalism are the mechanisms that allow it, for instance I run a limited company and I'm fully aware of what the 'limited' part of that means. I'm the only shareholder (now possible, but previously there needed to be 2).
'Money' (or more correctly 'token passing' or 'promissory notes') allowed for several things to happen. Firstly work=money, whereas before it was more work=bartering token. Then there's work can be done away from where you live (the Roman army made excellent use of this little spin off). It has to be backed by a solid fiscal regime for the 'currency' to have any meaning, but 'IOU's' etc had been around for a while before that.

Diziet Sma wrote:

Smivs wrote:

Capitalism has been around pretty much since money was invented. It was only recognised and named much more recently.

Sorry mate.. but you're very, very wrong. My guess is that, as with most people, your definition of Capitalism is extremely sloppy.

Wikipedia wrote:

Capitalism is an economic system and a mode of production in which trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned.

Which has been broadly true like forever, hasn't it? Whether the system was run by individuals, Pharoahs, religious leaders or just plain feudal Kings and Lords this has been the case throughout history. Publicly owned property (Socialism/Communism) is the relatively recent invention.

Smivs wrote:

Wikipedia wrote:

Capitalism is an economic system and a mode of production in which trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned.

Which has been broadly true like forever, hasn't it? Whether the system was run by individuals, Pharoahs, religious leaders or just plain feudal Kings and Lords this has been the case throughout history. Publicly owned property (Socialism/Communism) is the relatively recent invention.

Precisely what I disagree with.
"largely or entirely privately owned" is a shortcut way to say "ability to destroy, transfer, use and lend largely or entirely privately owned", but this ability is not a boolean (true/false), it's a float, an ability you can measure.
For example, your ability to sell a house depends on the number of potential buyers (the location). Try in Detroit...
And in the past, the liquidity was very low compared to now : lack of buyers, banking system frowned upon, traditional ways to decide who would exploit in the name of the lord, etc.

So, "trade, industries, and the means of production" were in name privately owned, but in fact the "ownership capability index" was very low. Enough so that lords did rule, but did not "own" in our current meaning.

The capitalism concept depends on the ownership concept, and this one has varied a lot, and still is.

In sweden, you may travel on any field. Try that in France! Clearly, to be able to prevent others from entering your "own(ed)" land is part of capitalism in France, but not in Sweden...
In England, terrains are not owned, but conceded by the crown for 99 years (correct me if I'm wrong). Is that ownership? Is this capitalism?

Nope. Capitalism is a theoretical concept, not a real world one. :-p

Edit/add: in the real world, some capitalist pretentions are guaranteed by the government (nobody enters your field), and others are limited by the same government (hunters mat enter your field at will if it is smaller than a certain threshold, to regulate wild life).
If the government implements a democracy, then local capitalism is submitted to the public will.
If not, then the eventual local ownership laws may be changed at any moment, and ownership is virtual.

Day wrote:

In England, terrains are not owned, but conceded by the crown for 99 years (correct me if I'm wrong).

There is probably some land which this applies to, but it's not a general rule. Most land you can buy and own as in conventional countries.

Just throwing it out there, feel free to disagree -

Isn't capitalism, the concept, a function of the survival instinct? The idea of ownership surely comes from the inbuilt drive to survive - "I'm keeping this useful commodity, goat, that I caught with my own instincts and ability. So, if you want to share in its bounty of cheese, you have to give me something in return. In hard times, I reserve the right to keep all the cheese to myself, so if you starve and die, it's not my problem. If you try to take it by force, I will stop you; might is right."

To extend - "I've sailed half way around the world and I like this land. You're too stupid to own it, that's fine, I'll take it and raise my goats. What's that, you want to dig up yams under my goat pen? Bugger off, that's my goat pen, I built it with my own hands and you can't knock it down to harvest your food, so if you starve and die, it's not my problem. If you try to take it by force, I will stop you; might is right."

Socialism then is the moderator for Capitalism. The recognition that working together cooperatively benefits the community as a whole, ergo (by the law of averages) the individuals in it - "If you build a goat pen for me, because you're good at that stuff, my goats will multiply and produce more cheese. I will give you a share of the cheese that the extra goats make, and in the hard times we will both survive."
Note that the goat catcher did not say, "I will give you a share of the cheese that all the goats make", therefore giving him a loophole in the situation that if all but the original goat dies, we are back at the first paragraph.

The difficulties arise when the cooperating community (lets call it a 'company') falls out over which goat is the original - "That's not the original goat, you said we could share the cheese. I built your pen." "It is the original goat, you can't prove it's not, therefore I keep the cheese and if you starve and die, it's not my problem. I'm taking the goat and going somewhere else, our cooperation is at an end. If you try to take it by force, I will stop you; might is right."

Dare I extend again (drawing a long bow I know) - Hence ultimately, wars will always be fought in the name of Capitalism... er... survival.

Just throwing it out there, feel free to disagree -

I agree with all you wrote, with that mighty precision that socialism came first.

At the tribe level, it's socialism, not capitalism. And a guy on its own can't survive, it's a fallacy.

Wildeblood wrote:

Has anyone created a new Google account recently, since they appointed themselves the de-facto global surveillance state? I lost my Google password in the Great Reformat and recently went to register a new account. But I bailed out on the "You will tell us your phone numbers" page. I can live without Gmail.

I created one just a few days ago for a friend and one for myself a few weeks ago.
Only use it for sites that ask for e-mail address to register. Makes me wonder what I used for here?
For phone I used the usual, Country code + area code + 12345678 or to the format required.
and used another gmail address for current address, one I had writen down but don't remember creating

Mmmm, wonder if my old hotmail account is still active?

Alex wrote:

Wildeblood wrote:

Has anyone created a new Google account recently... I bailed out on the "You will tell us your phone numbers" page. I can live without Gmail.

I created one just a few days ago for a friend and one for myself a few weeks ago... For phone I used the usual, Country code + area code + 12345678 or to the format required.

So they didn't actually send an SMS to the phone number to confirm it was yours? Good to know. Thanks.

when sites ask for an email to register i have used [email protected] ....... whoever has that account must be wondering what is happening... lol

i mostly use it at free wifi hotspots....