Oolite Bulletins

Paradox wrote:

What about making an online "calculator"? Where we can input the ships stats (or better yet, just cut and paste the shipdata.plist) and it would then spit out an MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) That we could then use as a guideline for pricing.

I have a hard time deciding on prices for my ships, and like the idea of something we could use to at least give us a starting point. But I do not like the idea of it being hard coded into the game.

Great idea!

Seconding an online calculator (and then someone applying the calculator to make a price-changing OXP )

Disembodied wrote:

Basically, though, like Smivs says, ship pricing is crazy.

Yep. A full core-game equipment set - counting all the "secret" items - costs about as much as a stock Cobra III. A fully iron-assed Cobra III outclasses two stock ones by a ridiculous margin.

I think the way to do it is to bring the ship prices down quite a bit, maybe slightly tweak a few equipment prices, and then make the servicing costs a much greater proportion of your ship's worth. So, a Cobra III might cost 1500 credits (say), and have basic servicing costs of around 300 credits a time (much reduced on now). Bring it to full iron-ass spec, and it's now worth around 170,000 credits, and costs 34,000 credits a time to service, which is going to require you to actually use all those shiny features to keep turning a profit, rather than paying for it in a couple of milkruns.

I added a renovation_multiplier option to the shipyard.plist so I could play around with this idea in an OXP, but haven't had time to try it out yet.

(I think it might only be possible by OXP: trying to tweak core game ship pricing would be an "interesting" compatibility mess)

I like the way you're thinking, cim!

cim wrote:

Yep. A full core-game equipment set - counting all the "secret" items - costs about as much as a stock Cobra III. A fully iron-assed Cobra III outclasses two stock ones by a ridiculous margin.

I think the way to do it is to bring the ship prices down quite a bit, maybe slightly tweak a few equipment prices, and then make the servicing costs a much greater proportion of your ship's worth. So, a Cobra III might cost 1500 credits (say), and have basic servicing costs of around 300 credits a time (much reduced on now). Bring it to full iron-ass spec, and it's now worth around 170,000 credits, and costs 34,000 credits a time to service, which is going to require you to actually use all those shiny features to keep turning a profit, rather than paying for it in a couple of milkruns.

I added a renovation_multiplier option to the shipyard.plist so I could play around with this idea in an OXP, but haven't had time to try it out yet.

(I think it might only be possible by OXP: trying to tweak core game ship pricing would be an "interesting" compatibility mess)

The actual numbers might need tweaking, but the idea seems sound. Of course, it seems to me that at 1500 credits, a Broke Adder game isn't going to be so hardcore anymore... because upgrading to a much better stock ship is dang easy

Paradox wrote:

What about making an online "calculator"? Where we can input the ships stats (or better yet, just cut and paste the shipdata.plist) and it would then spit out an MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) That we could then use as a guideline for pricing.

I have a hard time deciding on prices for my ships, and like the idea of something we could use to at least give us a starting point. But I do not like the idea of it being hard coded into the game.

I had a go at this (for my own use) some time ago and to try to make an accurate one can quickly become problematical.

If i can travel twice as fast but only have half the energy, would that be a fair trade?
If I gain an extra 5TC cargo then should that be of more value to a ship that has none than to a ship that already has 100?
Should 'elements' simply be assigned values and pieced together or should the ship be assessed as a whole?
Is a drop in maneuverabilty always a handicap?
Should a vessel that's twice as good cost twice as much?
etc. etc.
And then: how the blue blazes do I calculate that lot?

I did get as far as a draft formula that was... well, it was something

Here's a pull from an old spreadsheet I have to give you some idea of its complexity:

=150000*(0.65+(((B96*((B108)+1))+B97)*0.01))*(((3+(B94*B95))*((B106/4)+(B107/4)+1)*0.1)*(((B89*4)+B91+B92+(B103/2))*0.1)*((20+(B99)+(B100/2)+(B101/4)+B102+(B103/2))*0.1))*(1-(B109/250))+B104

I don't even know if that was its latest version

I appreciate that it makes little sense without the cell contents but the more complicated it got, the more difficult it became to tinker with or to reimagine.

From memory, compared to the game prices it gave similar values to the lower end vessels but (generally) inflated the cost of the higher end ones. At the time, I thought that might be desirable in terms of longer play-time before I could buy a new ship.

If such a formula was ever integrated into the game, then there would need to be a tool for OXP ship designers to modify their ship price by a set percentage:

My luxury Lamborghini ship is formula+70%, my ugly but reliable hauler is formula-20%.

Isn't maintenance cost dependant on ship cost?

Ship pricing in the core game is something that really irritates me as a newcomer to Oolite. So pardon me if I take a stab at the whole issue.

1. The ship downgrade problem

Currently buying any other ship than the Cobra Mk III you start with feels like a _downgrade_, which is insane. The Mk III is good at everything, which seems definitely a bit too good to be true.

Giving the player the best ship in the game right away removes all potential for character growth via buying new ships (since in Oolite, character == ship.) It would appear more sane to simply have the player start with enough money to buy either a much-upgraded Adder, a slightly upgraded Cobra Mk 1 or a stock Moray. This would also mean these ship types would see more use.

For difficulty levels, you would then simply decrease/increase the available starting money. On Easy skill, the player could afford a Medical Boat (more cargo) and on Hard skill, the player could only afford an Adder with basic upgrades. Nightmare skill would mean just enough money to buy an Adder without upgrades (or even having to go into debt, if a debt system is deemed desirable)

2. The useless-money problem

Starting with a Mk III makes money even more useless than it already is: After fully upgrading the Mk III (which costs what, 70 K credits?), further money is not required except for repairs. Repairs are currently really cheap compared to the value of a ship - even a single milk run can finance a maintenance overhaul. Fuel (despite being the most desirable good in the game) is currently FREE because of sun skimming, which is insane too. Sun skimming should really increase the likelihood that your ship will need a repair to make the free fuel not quite so free.

All this means that trading eventually stops being useful, because even if you have 1 million credits in the bank, there is nothing sensible to spend it on, since money does neither buy you a better ship nor does it influence Rank.

Since the game's only real winning condition is to become Elite, kills are FAR more interesting than profit. So why would anyone buy an Anaconda? You might as well paint a bull's eye on it. Perhaps if there was a "Tycoon" rank as an alternative winning condition, profit (and large haulers) would become more attractive compared to kills.

3. Fixing it

- Let the player start with 125,000 credits and no ship; have Lave station offer an Adder, a Cobra Mk I, and a Moray.
- Reduce the fantasy prices for Asp, Boa, BCC, FDL and Anaconda. Limit ship prices to 250,000 credits. Make the Cobra Mk III one of the most expensive ships so it feels like an achievement if you fly one.
- Double the price for fuel, and make killed ships sometimes drop fuel canisters to reward kills.
- Make sun-skimming have a 33% chance to damage your ship (and force a repair.)
- Increase the price of repairs to 10 - 20% of the ship resale value to reward trade (or piracy.)
- Introduce Trader ranks (money based) as well as Fighter ones (kills based.) Tycoon == Elite. Rewards cargo hauling / contracts.
- Provide all this as a toggleable menu option - "New Core Balance" (akin to Docking Clearance.)

IMHO this would make for a much more balanced core game, provide actual motivation to buy a more expensive ship, and make trading a lot more attractive (if not absolutely required) throughout the game.

Here's a listing of rebalanced ship prices to go with this:

- Python 160,000
- Boa 185,000
- Asp Mk II 195,000
- Fer de Lance 215,000
- Anaconda 225,000
- Cobra Mk III 235,000
- Boa Class Cruiser 250,000

The similar prices for fighting ships and cargo haulers would be justified because after this rebalance, trading and killing would be equally desirable.

case81 wrote:

1. The ship downgrade problem

Currently buying any other ship than the Cobra Mk III you start with feels like a _downgrade_, which is insane. The Mk III is good at everything, which seems definitely a bit too good to be true.

Giving the player the best ship in the game right away removes all potential for character growth via buying new ships (since in Oolite, character == ship.) It would appear more sane to simply have the player start with enough money to buy either a much-upgraded Adder, a slightly upgraded Cobra Mk 1 or a stock Moray. This would also mean these ship types would see more use.

For difficulty levels, you would then simply decrease/increase the available starting money. On Easy skill, the player could afford a Medical Boat (more cargo) and on Hard skill, the player could only afford an Adder with basic upgrades. Nightmare skill would mean just enough money to buy an Adder without upgrades (or even having to go into debt, if a debt system is deemed desirable)

Look at the new (1.80+) 'start scenarios' options, oxp/oxz authors can script almost any start you can think of.

As for the cobbie being the best ship in the game :
looking at core ships - maybe
comparing with ships from expansions : there are ships (ex: caduceus omega) that will destroy an iron-ass cobbie without problems, probably in less then a minute.

more general comments :

Oolite offers more things then just trading & fighting for players :
missions
take on a role : bounty hunter, asassin, pirate, courier, taxi driver

Winning conditions :
Oolite doesn't have them, if the game gets to easy there are plenty of ways to make it harder/more interesting.

Lone_Wolf wrote:

As for the cobbie being the best ship in the game :
looking at core ships - maybe
comparing with ships from expansions : there are ships (ex: caduceus omega) that will destroy an iron-ass cobbie without problems, probably in less then a minute.

Agreed. I also did not like the fact that you start the game with the "best ship". Which is why I started building my own. Try moving up to the D.T.T. Snake Charmer (if I may toot my own horn). Same cargo capacity as the cobra, but 4 non-removable passenger berths as well. I think it's also just a tad faster than the Cobby as well.

case81 wrote:

Since the game's only real winning condition is to become Elite, kills are FAR more interesting than profit. So why would anyone buy an Anaconda? You might as well paint a bull's eye on it. Perhaps if there was a "Tycoon" rank as an alternative winning condition, profit (and large haulers) would become more attractive compared to kills.

Like Lone_Wolf said, the game is what you make it. Try doing just passenger, cargo, or parcel runs. Or install something like RandomHits and become a bounty hunter. It's all a frame of mind! };]

case81 wrote:

So why would anyone buy an Anaconda? You might as well paint a bull's eye on it.

<grins> Don't knock Anaconda jocks - or you'll have Atomic Annie on your six!

It sounds like the basic game is feeling a bit too basic. Dive into OXPs and make the game you want it to be. And if there's still something missing, start creating OXPs.

Some shameless self plugs coming in...

* Trader's rating? Try [wiki]MarketObserver[/wiki]
* More interesting trading? Try [wiki]New Cargoes[/wiki]
* More challenging start? Try [wiki]Start Choices[/wiki]
* Interested in the therapeutic life of an asteroid miner? Try [wiki]Ore Processor[/wiki].
* Make a life from derelicts? Try [wiki]Towbar[/wiki].
* Sun skimming too easy/tempting. Maybe [wiki]DeepSpacePirates[/wiki] would add some danger here and move the sun farther with for example [wiki]Distant Suns[/wiki].
* Get some mission OXPs to spice things up. For example [wiki]UPS Courier[/wiki], [wiki]Random Hits OXP[/wiki],  Rescue Stations and [wiki]Escort Contracts OXP[/wiki] all provide random missions. There are others too, you might want to browse the wiki a bit.
* Do you like to collect things? Then Explorers' Club, [wiki]Trophy Collector[/wiki] or Station Spotter from [wiki]Stations for Extra Planets[/wiki] might float your boat.

All these are available from the in-game manager.

Welcome case81 and keep the ideas coming.

Most ideas are best addressed through the OXP/OXZ system rather than by altering the core (which requires much debate ), and as has already been said some of your ideas are already (at least partially) in place through OXPs. Try them out - if you don't like one then you can simply remove it . Caveat emptor some can make the game much harder at the start.

case81 wrote:

.....make killed ships sometimes drop fuel canisters to reward kills.

 Cargo Wreck Teaser does add a fuel container - but be careful it's a little sensitive

case81 wrote:

Make sun-skimming have a 33% chance to damage your ship (and force a repair.)

As I understand it sun-skimming does increase the degradation to the ship (as does taking laser damage with shields down) thus increasing the frequency for maintenance. Not having maintenance increases the chance of miss-jumps and problems when jumping.

I do like your idea of direct damage from sun skimming . I think 33% is too high however. A better mechanism might be that the closer to the sun and /or higher cabin temperature increases the damage chances - as all the suns are different.

case81 wrote:

Currently buying any other ship than the Cobra Mk III you start with feels like a _downgrade_, which is insane. The Mk III is good at everything, which seems definitely a bit too good to be true.

Giving the player the best ship in the game right away removes all potential for character growth via buying new ships (since in Oolite, character == ship.) It would appear more sane to simply have the player start with enough money to buy either a much-upgraded Adder, a slightly upgraded Cobra Mk 1 or a stock Moray. This would also mean these ship types would see more use.

I absolutely agree that, in a major game redesign, this is the way things should go. At the moment, though, the central issue holding everything back is top speed. In a Cobra III, when you get masslocked, you can overhaul any of the core ships you meet that are also inbound to the station. If you're in an Adder, or a Cobra I, you can't, without using injectors.

Essentially, to make other, slower ships workable (assuming that most players don't want to spend 15-20 minutes flying in a straight line towards the planet, therefore necessitating some form of speed-up device), we would have to dump the Torus drive and masslock system and replace it with some form of time acceleration. Currently, this isn't practical, not least because the AI has difficulty shooting and steering at higher speeds. OXPable starting options are probably the best way to go, and starting in a Cobra I or an Adder is a lot of fun. But without a top-to-bottom redesign, including ship prices, the game economy, game geography, and large, important portions of the game mechanics, it's always going to be a pretty hardcore option.

Disembodied wrote:

...dump the Torus drive and masslock system...

Yay! Disembodied for president!

(What do you mean, "Quoted out of context"?)