Oolite Bulletins

Gecko wrote:

... why not using yaw?

Personally, it's one of my self-imposed handicaps - core NPCs don't use yaw.

CheeseRedux wrote:

Oh, it's definitely hardware. Of the most basic sort. The cost of making these things thinner and lighter is a loss of structural integrity (and a certain plastic-y feel). So the slight pressure of resting appendages gets interpreted as light touches on the arrow keys. I've not noticed the effect elsewhere, no, but I attribute that to the software running a "He didn't mean that, did he?" check when noticing these faint "key presses". Which is why I wondered if there was a threshold setting hidden somewhere in Oolite.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been any such thing as what we might call "key-press sensitivity" in computer keyboards. The only thing that comes close is what is termed "contact bounce". This refers to the phenomenon that occurs when a switch (which is all a key is) is closed. The electrical contacts that make up the switch will "bounce" off one another 2 or 3 times as the switch is closed. This results in multiple spurious "on" and "off" signals being sent in very rapid succession, before the switch is firmly in the "on" position (or the key fully depressed).

In early computer keyboards this presented a serious problem, as characters would repeat several times whenever a key was struck. To counteract the problem, circuitry was included in keyboards that would filter out the spurious signals from the contacts bouncing. A second layer of defence against contact bounce is provided by the "key repeat delay" that is provided in the keyboard section of the computers Control Panel, although this is not, of course, its' primary function.

Something that may help is to increase the key repeat delay in your laptop's keyboard settings. However, without checking the code to see, I suspect that Oolite polls the keyboard in a more direct manner, and may well not take the key repeat delay into account at all, so as to provide more responsive controls.

If this is the case, it would be necessary for code to be added to the Oolite core to intercept and filter out very brief, spurious keyboard events, perhaps with some kind of "sensitivity" adjustment. However, even if such code were added, it would still be unable to filter out signals resulting from sustained pressure, such as your hand steadily resting near the keyboard.


I do understand what you are saying regarding the construction of modern laptops, but even so, the switches underneath each key are quite small, and there is no justifiable reason for nearby pressure on the hand-rest region to cause such events. It is not as if the operational part of the keyboard mechanism extends out under the rest of the case. Personally speaking, I would regard it as faulty construction, and would be seeking a replacement or refund, if I'd purchased a new laptop that behaved in such a way.

Gecko wrote:

why not using yaw?

It's just not something I've ever used. The original Elite controls didn't include yaw (the HUD, for example, only indicates pitch and roll, and - as Cody says - the NPCs don't use it), and that's how I learned the game.

Disembodied wrote:

Gecko wrote:

why not using yaw?

It's just not something I've ever used. The original Elite controls didn't include yaw (the HUD, for example, only indicates pitch and roll, and - as Cody says - the NPCs don't use it), and that's how I learned the game.

My HUD has a yaw indicator shared with roll. It seems to me yaw is no more different or unnatural than pitch and roll. It can be explained, as with FE2 and FFE, by the use of thrusters rather than engines.

It doesn't bother me if NPC's don't use yaw. They come after me like hell hounds. I especially like the Asp, alt Cobra 1, FDL, and Krait who try to run me down on injectors. If I manage to hit them they shoot away like a meteor. They have stingers in their tails and not pulse lasers either. If I turn to fight then the game is the same. Some of them even have side lasers. So I will use any advantage the game gives me.

If the core NPCs started using side-lasers and yaw, I would of course have to reconsider my ROE.

Diziet Sma wrote:

I do understand what you are saying regarding the construction of modern laptops, but even so, the switches underneath each key are quite small, and there is no justifiable reason for nearby pressure on the hand-rest region to cause such events. It is not as if the operational part of the keyboard mechanism extends out under the rest of the case. Personally speaking, I would regard it as faulty construction, and would be seeking a replacement or refund, if I'd purchased a new laptop that behaved in such a way.

Hmm, I could've sworn I've experienced similar things before, although to a lesser extent. Might've just imagined it, of course. Perhaps I'll fire up the sturdy old Dell and see if bending it can produce the same effect.
I'll probably end up taking it back anyway, since it would seem they've given me a Monday morning battery; Running nothing but a browser and WiFi, a full charge gives me less than two hours. (Either that or there's some mumbo-jumbo Windows dependency for making it charge right…)

Cody wrote:

If the core NPCs started using side-lasers and yaw, I would of course have to reconsider my ROE.

They would use side lasers since 1.77 if they had them, but they haven't.

Yaw is un-Elitey, it's just as simple as that. Elite Space ships are controlled with pitch and roll (which also gives you a much better spatial understanding in 3D space). Period.

The experimental introduction of yaw back in Oolite 1.67 was controversial back then, and has remained controversial ever since, with some of the veteran players still feeling that it's just wrong (as evidenced by the voices in this very thread).

Myself I'm among those who never use it in normal flight. I'm admitting, though, to occasionally use it in combat with a heavy, slow moving object like a Thargoid Carrier. Those are usually killed by sitting in the distance, spinning around and giving it a taste of all my military lasers, until it falters (during the fifth full burst; so you need a little more than one salvo from each of your lasers).

Jens (to name another veteran) on the other hand, was an avid supporter of yaw controls since at least 2005, and of course one of the driving forces behind implementing it.

I use yaw quite often, however its really only during manual docking when its useful for lining up with the docking bay.

Commander McLane wrote:

The experimental introduction of yaw back in Oolite 1.67 was controversial back then, and has remained controversial ever since, with some of the veteran players still feeling that it's just wrong (as evidenced by the voices in this very thread).

I should stress that I have no actual objection to the yaw control being in the game … I feel that it's wrong - or, more correctly, unnecessary - for me to yaw, is all!

Commander McLane wrote:

Jens (to name another veteran) on the other hand, was an avid supporter of yaw controls...

<smirks> That must have been because he couldn't master docking!

I find I don't use yaw much if I'm using the keyboard, but with a joystick, particularly when close-quarters dogfighting, it just seems to feel natural to use all 3 axes, just as I would in a fighter jet.. (and especially during evasive manoeuvres)

I can remember my reaction to the introduction of yaw control as being "Thank god for that!"

I get the feeling that if the now-standard "twist for yaw" feature had been around on joysticks back during the Elite creation days, it probably would have featured it from scratch, but joysticks back then were pretty primitive - basically what passes for a hat switch now plus a single fire button - no variation according to the amount of deflection from zero or anything.

In fact, I wouldn't have been surprised if there'd been some discussion during the creation process regarding having "pitch and roll" or "pitch and yaw", but using roll gets around the whole "which way is up?" issue that would result from using yaw.

(Yes, I'm a yaw-er - I spend too much time on other earthly combat flight sims to do without my rudder now!)