Oolite Bulletins

Diziet Sma wrote:

I think it's a kind of 'conversational pause' kind of thing

Which brings the use of the ellipsis into my head. The conventions on that seem to have changed in the 40+ years since I left school, but maybe I mis-remember. I use the things too often (and probably incorrectly), but as Diz says, it becomes a habit. Summon a grammar/linguistics wizard!

Okti wrote:

Actually the link on the wiki page for LRS does not point to the latest version of LongRangeScanner, the link on my sig is correct. Can a wiki wizard can correct it?

Done.. also fixed the link for the Pylon Based Equipment Remover, which was suffering from the same problem.

El Viejo wrote:

Summon a grammar/linguistics wizard!

I don't know if I qualify as a wizard, but I have to proofread the damn things ... (argh! There's one now!)

Basically it's three dots. But there's a special typographical character for them, Unicode U+2026, thus … (as opposed to ... : I trust we can all see the difference? ). The typographical character is preferred, because it won't accidentally split across lines. When it comes to typesetting, if the font you're using has an ugly ellipsis (oh how I hate a font with an ugly ellipsis), you can find-and-replace it with a hand-crafted version that's more pleasantly spaced, but you've got to use non-breaking, fixed-width spaces.

Ellipses are used to indicate several different things. In academia, principally, they're used to mark where a bit of a quote has been omitted. There are differences of opinion about the proper use of this but personally I think that when these are used they should have square brackets around them, to differentiate them from ellipses that the original quoted author might have used.

Then there's using them to indicate a pause … like that one. Or an unfinished sentence, that just trails away …

Spacing is also an issue, as is combining it with other punctuation (are you sorry you asked yet?). To space, or not to space? The main thing here is consistency. Personally, I prefer to space out my ellipses like this … as opposed to this…which I think looks ugly. But I don't add a second space when combining them with other punctuation marks, like this …! And I don't add a second space when they appear at the end of a sentence ‘inside quotation marks …’.

We can go on to discuss the bitter controversies regarding the use of four-dot ellipses to indicate elided paragraphs, if you like …

Disembodied wrote:

Basically it's three dots. But there's a special typographical character for them, Unicode U+2026, thus … (as opposed to ... : I trust we can all see the difference? ). The typographical character is preferred, because it won't accidentally split across lines.

And that's why I use two dots.. three just looks bad... and until such time as they see fit to map that typographical character to a single key, I'll stick to my two dots.. entering unicode characters whilst typing is a PITA..

Diziet Sma wrote:

[…] until such time as they see fit to map that typographical character to a single key, I'll stick to my two dots.. entering unicode characters whilst typing is a PITA..

(See what I did there? ) The special ellipsis character is ALT-; on a Mac …

Thanks D... as you say, consistency is the key, I think. MS Word automatically makes them for you (and does them as I use them, strangely), which is very occasionly annoying, but more often handy.

Oh, look...another thread derailment

Smivs wrote:

Oh, look...another thread derailment

It's all SandJ's fault!

Diziet Sma wrote:

It's all SandJ's fault!

Yep! It'll get back on topic, in an elliptical sort of way.

Test, test ...

… … … - no luck.

Oh, wait, …
OK (Alt+0133 it is.)

öadevhbaerbrveaävbäaewvbnrvaäiaewvbaeevbnaäevvbnääeritbgqäebrnvqäp qeinbnqäpinbwrjgpowbvnnverig

Damn, both Alt+0160 and Alt+255 for non-breaking-space seem to work in the preview of the post, but once submitted, it breaks exactly at the non-breaking space.

Bah! whatever …

snork wrote:

öadevhbaerbrveaävbäaewvbnrvaäiaewvbaeevbnaäevvbnääeritbgqäebrnvqäp qeinbnqäpinbwrjgpowbvnnverig

That seems to be a non-breaking space you've got in there … when I resize the window your post remains at a fixed length!

Diziet Sma wrote:

SandJ wrote:

Off-topic, but, may I ask - why do you use two full stops? (I have seen others do that online too.)

I think it's a kind of 'conversational pause' kind of thing, like just now, I didn't really start a new sentence, I just inserted a brief pause, and continued. Two full stops at the end of the post is probably roughly analogous to trailing off - waiting for an expected response from whoever I'm talking with.

FTFY. I see no need for it.

Disembodied wrote:

Ellipses are used to indicate several different things. In academia, principally, they're used to mark where a bit of a quote has been omitted.

And my wife, an indexer, gets very grumpy with these as it indicates a very lazy academic. They should never appear in that role in a finalised text.

Disembodied wrote:

Then there's using them to indicate a pause … like that one. Or an unfinished sentence, that just trails away …

I would disagree: they do not indicate a pause; that is the role of the semi-colon or the full-stop. Certainly, ellipses can end unfinished sentences where the author has, you know...

Disembodied wrote:

Spacing is also an issue, as is combining it with other punctuation (are you sorry you asked yet?). To space, or not to space? The main thing here is consistency. Personally, I prefer to space out my ellipses like this … as opposed to this…which I think looks ugly.

I was under the impression that in English, the correct form is no space before or after the ellipsis.

You have omitted another standard publishing symbol—the em dash—which is typically represented using hyphens on computers. Thus:

You have omitted another standard publishing symbol - the em dash - which is typically represented using hyphens on computers.

In any case - so it it's not me - there is no recognised use for a double full-stop; full-stops, commas, semi-colons, hyphens and dashes can fulfil all the required roles for a break.

SandJ wrote:

And my wife, an indexer, gets very grumpy with these as it indicates a very lazy academic. They should never appear in that role in a finalised text.

As an employee of an academic publisher, I'd disagree: sometimes the full quote is too long and full of digressions. No sense in covering three pages with some dead author's letter to her sister-in-law, burbling about the shrubbery, when the only bit that's relevant is the part at the beginning where she mentions her husband's death, and at the end when she invites the sister-in-law to the funeral. As long as the quoter isn't changing the meaning of the original text, it's fine. I'd only expect an indexer to index material presented in the final text, and I wouldn't give an indexer non-final text!

SandJ wrote:

Disembodied wrote:

Then there's using them to indicate a pause … like that one. Or an unfinished sentence, that just trails away …

I would disagree: they do not indicate a pause; that is the role of the semi-colon or the full-stop. Certainly, ellipses can end unfinished sentences where the author has, you know...

They can be used to indicate a pause, or more correctly a hesitation, in reported speech. In a straightforward sentence, you're right; a semi-colon or colon is appropriate (like that one). But in reported speech, or in a chatty form of text … I'd say it's OK to use an ellipsis!

SandJ wrote:

I was under the impression that in English, the correct form is no space before or after the ellipsis.

There is no correct form, because there's no universal authority. It's personal preference/house style only: just keep it consistent.

SandJ wrote:

You have omitted another standard publishing symbol—the em dash—which is typically represented using hyphens on computers. Thus:

You have omitted another standard publishing symbol - the em dash - which is typically represented using hyphens on computers.

The first ones there are ems; the second ones look like en-dashes but could be hyphens. This font seems to make hyphens - longer than en-dashes – which gets confusing: an en-dash should be longer. Em-dashes should be unspaced, en-dashes should be spaced; hyphens shouldn't be used as dashes at all. Em-dashes are, for my taste anyway, a little bit old-fashioned now (although perhaps that's because I typeset quite a few old texts, and they are often em-dash crazy—an em-dash here—an em-dash there—gracious, Mr Bozziwig, I didn't know where a body should look!). I'd only use an em-dash myself to represent a sudden interrup—

Hyphens and en-dashes are the bane of my bloody life. Numbers, for example, should be separated by en-dashes, e.g. pp. 45–57. You can use wildcard searches on Word to find numerals with adjacent hyphens and automatically change them to en-dashes, but they're not the only things to watch for. Something like "Sections A–E" should use an en-dash; something like "the Franco-Prussian War" uses a hyphen but "a French–German trade agreement" uses an en-dash (because "Franco-" is a prefix and "French" is not). And most authors wouldn't know an en-dash from a hole in the ground.

Mind you, it's not as bad as authors who do their own formatting. <shudders> "I want this in two columns, so to help you,* I've typed the first line of the first column, followed by a string of spaces, followed by the first line of the second column, followed by a return; then we have the second line of the first column, followed by another string of spaces, followed by the second line of the second column, followed by a line break this time, just to spice things up …". And so on.


* a phrase guaranteed to bring on fits of panic belching in a typesetter.

You just gotta love this forum, man!

I'm learning and improving my English writing skills on an Internet forum about a space trading game. Don't think that one would fly with the wife though, even though it's true.