Oolite Bulletins

I'm just wondering if these would actually be used for food production. Although obviously quite large, the amount of food one of these would be able to produce is miniscule when compared to the needs of a planetary population. Think of the amount of the Earth's surface given over to agriculture.
These would be used for exotic premium foods, or more likely some other purpose all together, such as liesure - think the Eden Centre.
A well-off but relatively barren world would probably still import food, but a nice 'jungle in space' would be a very popular holiday destination.

Smivs wrote:

I'm just wondering if these would actually be used for food production. Although obviously quite large, the amount of food one of these would be able to produce is miniscule when compared to the needs of a planetary population. Think of the amount of the Earth's surface given over to agriculture. These would be used for exotic premium foods

I agree with your point of view; as I posted previously, their small production would be suited to supply a deep space colony, or at most a small barren moon. Around main planets, it'd only supplement the food supply - imports would still be necessary (or the prices wouldn't be so much higher than in ag. systems).

, or more likely some other purpose all together, such as liesure - think the Eden Centre.
A well-off but relatively barren world would probably still import food, but a nice 'jungle in space' would be a very popular holiday destination.

Indeed, what I've been talking about would be better called space farms.
Yes, theme park would be nice too... but I think a different model would be in order, one that suggested "fun"; the current model is too businesslike for that use - it's even gray!

Smivs wrote:

I'm just wondering if these would actually be used for food production. Although obviously quite large, the amount of food one of these would be able to produce is miniscule when compared to the needs of a planetary population. Think of the amount of the Earth's surface given over to agriculture.

That's true, and you'd need a nuclear-winter lack of surface light for it not to be considerably easier just to build them - still sealed - on the outside of your industrial cities. I like the idea of them having exotic foods which only grow properly in zero-G (for that use, Rich Agri seems like the more likely location for them than an Industrial system)

Let's assume a 1Tc barrel of Food contains 1000kg of food, or approx 500 person-days of food. A Boa will bring 125Tc, and lets say 2 or 3 arrive each day carrying food rather than other goods. So they're only importing enough food to feed a couple of hundred thousand people at most. We can probably pretty safely assume then that the Food cargo is generally luxury food, interstellar delicacies, and the like, and all planets are usually self-sufficient for basic food needs. (The NPC bulk haulers could raise it to a couple of million people, perhaps, which is still negligible) So having the biospheres be exotic foods too makes perfect sense.

Or it could be used to keep endangered species of plants and animals in a sterile atmosphere and stop them from disappearing.

Still on the space farms theme, their markets' (very small, total 10t max) exports could be set according to the location:

-around main planets they could produce luxuries and/or liquor;
-near moons they'd produce food and some luxuries, liquor and narcotics;
-with an OXP* space colony, food, liquor and some narcotics;
-with an OXP* pirate haven, liquor, narcotics and some food.

In all cases (fictionally, just for the sake of immersion - or until someone OXP it), they could swap the production to food during food shortages.

As for imports, they could pay slightly better prices for machinery and/or slaves, minerals (fertilizer), and possibly alloys for repairs...


*as suggested earlier, a deep space colony / pirate haven OXP bundling of utilitarian stations, rock hermits and disabled freighters.

[EDIT] It seems I've strayed from the Biosphere OXP and am actually asking for two spin-offs... So be it.

Fatleaf wrote:

Or it could be used to keep endangered species of plants and animals in a sterile atmosphere and stop them from disappearing.

Nah. Nobody cares enough about biodiversity to really build a greenhouse in space, Fatleaf. Seed stores, yes.

a) But I can see a Kew Gardens type greenhouse being constructed for exotica and funded by tourism. It would import Food (for the cafe) and export trinkets and the usual gift shop crap, i.e. Luxuries.

b) I reckon these biospheres could also be producing really special, delicate, pristine-conditions floristry items, e.g. luminous orchids, latticework roses, thermochromatic dahlias and the like for top-of-society weddings. To grow these luxury items they just need biomass: cheap food for composting would be sufficient. They also make use of gilding and exotic stones for decoration. Import Food, Gold, Platinum and Gems; export Luxuries.

c) Production of specialist medicines based on ravenous antibiotic fungi (e.g. polydentilepenicillin), genetically-modified antiviral bacteria and hyper-virulent pathogenical antiparisitical viruses cannot be done planet-side - it is far too dangerous. Instead they are produced in the space labs ("biospheres") where there is minimal risk of contamination or inadvertent release. These space labs import biomass ("Food"), body parts ("Slaves"), exotic species ("Furs") and export exotic medicines ("Luxuries").

d) Whenever legislation regarding biological weapons was produced, it always only applied to a geographical area; production in free space remains legal. Viruses used to wipe out basic alien life prior to terraforming, anti-Thargoid fungi, star-jelly dispersal parasites and the like are manufactured in these vast, space-bound "biospheres". They import Food and Liquor/Wines for the staff, Alien Items for testing, Minerals for processing, and export weapons ("Firearms")

cim wrote:

Let's assume a 1Tc barrel of Food contains 1000kg of food, or approx 500 person-days of food. A Boa will bring 125Tc, and lets say 2 or 3 arrive each day carrying food rather than other goods. So they're only importing enough food to feed a couple of hundred thousand people at most. We can probably pretty safely assume then that the Food cargo is generally luxury food, interstellar delicacies, and the like, and all planets are usually self-sufficient for basic food needs. (The NPC bulk haulers could raise it to a couple of million people, perhaps, which is still negligible) So having the biospheres be exotic foods too makes perfect sense.

A little off-topic, but I just want to remark that this is a very sensible line of thought. In effect it also applies to all other tradable commodities. The in- and outflux that the player sees is just way too low (by orders of magnitude) to have any impact on planetary economy, on any planet.

Which means that all planets are basically self-sufficient with everything, and all trading goods can only be some specialties. And indeed, if you think about it, you would expect any terraformed planet to be self-sufficient. Earth is, for one. And the planets in the Ooniverse are not in the early stages of colonization, where a small initial population lives under one single small glass dome.

It’s hardly a new observation that there is no context in which interstellar trade actually makes any sense. :-)

Ahruman wrote:

It’s hardly a new observation that there is no context in which interstellar trade actually makes any sense.

True. Among other things it makes completely moot the entire premise of the Star Wars prequels.

Shh!

Right, let's finish derailing the thread!

Commander McLane wrote:

And indeed, if you think about it, you would expect any terraformed planet to be self-sufficient. Earth is, for one.

If you remember correctly, humanity was already self-sufficient (or dead) long before trade was invented.
Then you get division of labour, etc., but even during the maritime expansion what was traded were still exotic, high-value stuff: cinnamon, ivory, oils, coffee, pineapples, silk, beverages, etc.

Until Britain, propelled by an early industrial revolution, started pressing other countries to specialize (and stop competing with them, and get into a trade debt with them, and give them fiscal advantages, etc. - or else...), attacking the very concept of self-sufficiency.
What do you get: what you see nowadays; it's called globalization [the rest of this rant is better left omitted].

Ahruman wrote:

It’s hardly a new observation that there is no context in which interstellar trade actually makes any sense.

<pop>

My entire belief in the back-story to E/Oolite has been destroyed...

<boo-hoo>

Perhaps some seriously rich Industrial worlds with very big populations would have moved agriculture off world as they grew out of the original terraformed (mixed) origins - to moons and/or terraformed other worlds (in-system). If inter-stellar travel becomes effectively cheap and easy (as it appears in Oolite) then its possible the big corporations on these original hub worlds might move out into nearby systems, terraforming and turning them into agri-worlds (who then need to import a modicum of industrial like equipment (no point in polluting the shiny new terraformed world(s) if you don't need too) - and hence the early seeds of a Galactic Co-Operative are planted.

Ahruman wrote:

It’s hardly a new observation that there is no context in which interstellar trade actually makes any sense.

I don't know... for most of the commodities available in Oolite it probably does even outside the "rich people wanting status symbols" market. When trade with a reasonable economic partner is 2 or 3 hops at most, a week's not an outrageous shipping time, and trade/specialisation can work.

Textiles is fine. Clothes will generally last a few years, so a Boa or two a day is probably enough not to need to make your own locally (or at least significantly reduce production). Plenty of luxury market, but also a significant species market (you try getting humans to make a flightsuit with proper wing tailoring) from ex-pats.
Radioactives is fine. By-product levels are probably relatively low in-system by the Tc, so not every system needs a reprocessing plant.
Computers/Machinery are clearly the hyper-advanced sort that you might have shipped around the world nowadays (and generally traded high-TL to low-TL too, of course).
Alloys/Minerals/Gold/Platinum I would expect most of the real trade to be in-system from asteroid miners to planet, but probably all the easy deposits on most planets are mined out centuries ago so price variation between systems will allow a bit of arbitrage. And Gold/Platinum price variation is pretty small on the open markets.
Gem Stones definitely makes sense for interstellar trade. Individual metamorphic-origin gems may only occur in one place on an entire planet. Maybe only one place in the entire 8 galaxies, perhaps.

All the illegal goods are obviously going to flow from manufacturing in systems where no-one's watching to sale in systems where fewer people are watching, just by nature of being illegal.

Food, Liquor/Wines, Furs and of course Luxuries can really only be exotic luxuries for status symbols, but that's hardly the majority of cargo.

(Back on-topic, growth for natural fabrics should take up quite a bit less space than growth for food, so biospheres exporting Textiles might be an interesting variation)

cim wrote:

I don't know... for most of the commodities available in Oolite it probably does even outside the "rich people wanting status symbols" market. When trade with a reasonable economic partner is 2 or 3 hops at most, a week's not an outrageous shipping time, and trade/specialisation can work.

The basic problem is that if you have any reasonable technology for interstellar travel, it will almost certainly be cheaper (particularly in terms of energy) to manufacture the things you want from elementary particles than to ship them from another solar system. Such technology is far more plausible, too.

Of course, you can posit ridiculously cheap interstellar travel for the purpose of a story or setting, but as far as any relationship to reality is concerned you might as well say “wizards will make everything awesome”.

DaddyHoggy wrote:

I've been of the lwg3d site - but its very flaky and I can't find the model anywhere...

How about this one: [wiki]All Stars Large Freighter[/wiki]. Looks about the same to me: