Oolite Bulletins

Nice work, but I also subscribe to the TC being a standard volume, rather than weight. From Wikipedia:

wikipedia wrote:

The ton is a unit of measure. It has a long history and has acquired a number of meanings and uses over the years. It is used principally as a unit of weight, and as a unit of volume. It can also be used as a measure of energy, for truck classification, or as a colloquial term.

It is derived from the tun, the term applied to a barrel of the largest size. This could contain a volume between 210 and 256 gallons (800 to 1000 L), which could weigh around 2,000 pounds (900 kg) and occupy some 60 cubic feet (1700 L) of space.[1]

I'd make the engineering section in the Adder much bigger though, at the cost of living space.
There'd also need to be a regular airlock. The scoop would also need some sort of direct connection to the cargo bay, and in my personal interpretation of the Ooniverse, would need to be contained within the hull, perhaps only extended during scoop operation.


It'd be interesting to try and make an Oolite with more realistic distances and scales, but which is still playable and fun, although I believe many have tried and failed.

I liked the text, but the discussion is good too. Scaling the stuff down was a good thing to do.

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Serendipitously (had to check dictionary.com on this little monstrosity), a side effect will be to make it easier for new Jamesons to dock, while making little to no difference on the veterans.

A more ponderous rotation also has the effect of making the stations seem larger and grander. All in all, it's win-win!

Disembodied wrote:

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Serendipitously (had to check dictionary.com on this little monstrosity), a side effect will be to make it easier for new Jamesons to dock, while making little to no difference on the veterans.

A more ponderous rotation also has the effect of making the stations seem larger and grander. All in all, it's win-win!

I thought the rotation of the Coriolis had been slowed (I recall a similar discussion around the release of Griff's rebuilt stations). But slower is more impressive!

Micha wrote:

Nice work, but I also subscribe to the TC being a standard volume, rather than weight. From Wikipedia:

wikipedia wrote:

The ton is a unit of measure. It has a long history and has acquired a number of meanings and uses over the years. It is used principally as a unit of weight, and as a unit of volume. It can also be used as a measure of energy, for truck classification, or as a colloquial term.

It is derived from the tun, the term applied to a barrel of the largest size. This could contain a volume between 210 and 256 gallons (800 to 1000 L), which could weigh around 2,000 pounds (900 kg) and occupy some 60 cubic feet (1700 L) of space.[1]

I'd make the engineering section in the Adder much bigger though, at the cost of living space.
There'd also need to be a regular airlock. The scoop would also need some sort of direct connection to the cargo bay, and in my personal interpretation of the Ooniverse, would need to be contained within the hull, perhaps only extended during scoop operation.

It'd be interesting to try and make an Oolite with more realistic distances and scales, but which is still playable and fun, although I believe many have tried and failed.

More great points. The TC is, i think, something that has evolved through decades and centuries of space travel into something that can be reliably carried on most ships without taking up too much space. Basing it on something like a truck's trailer is, I think, unfeasible due to inertia and mass displacement. It's also something that needs to be easily stored and moved around in a space station's docking bay, which could be kinda cramped (canonical evidence for this could come from the Amiga Elite's docking sequence, where several ships are relatively close together in the docking bay.

Although the idea of a bigger engineering section is workable, I get the feeling from the current trends in design that most things are getting smaller by the day. Petrol burning engines can be fitted to 1:12 scale model aircraft, so it makes sense that spacecraft drive systems in Elite would have gone through similar processes in the 700 or so years of space travel that have been going on by the time of Oolite/Elite. I would postulate that the engineering bay is probably about right in terms of size, given that it has to handle the hyperdrive, the torus drive and the recycling/reclamation systems. The computer systems are contained in the astrogation console and the cooling systems are vented through the exhaust at the back of the ship.

The external details of the cargo scooping systems are definitely retractable, which is another of the justification for the size needing to be to the smaller scale. In the case of the Adder the cargo scoop will be central to the ventral forward panel and will route directly to the bay as located on the port side of the cockpit. The other thing I considered during the design is getting the canisters out of the ship when in a docking bay, and it too indicates a smaller size. Removing a 10m tall canister from a ship would need 10m clearance on at least one side. It would also mean needing at least a 2.5 metre diameter door to allow one canister to be extracted at a time (bigger if more were to be moved).

I agree about the airlock. The Adder design has the airlock system combined into the cargo bay, but there is also one in the roof. One thing I didn't think about, actually, was landing gear (other than them being part of the "equipment level").

Here's something interesting:

http://elite.acornarcade.com/ships/adderdat.htm

I sort of view the adder as a dedicated smuggler's vessel for hauling a few cargo cannisters straight to a planet where maximum profit from contraband can be achieved. Perhaps the adder was never really intended to have a fuel scoop? Anyways, great job on this thread Selezen. Having made paper models of the core ships gives you some extra insight as to scales and volumes. Let the creativity flow!

@Selezen: I wasn't necessarily meaning you'd got the size of the TC's wrong, just (IMHO) the justification

As for the living quarters - it seems you have the majority of the ships' area devoted to them; in a ship where space is at a premium and profits should be maximised it would appear (to me) that people would convert the additional space to extra cargo space, or weaponry, unless it was a luxury version for taking a VIP places. Anyhoo, differences of interpretation!

@CSOTB: That's an interesting site; hadn't come across that before. Some interesting ideas about making equipment prices and effectiveness depend on the ship.

Micha wrote:

@Selezen: I wasn't necessarily meaning you'd got the size of the TC's wrong, just (IMHO) the justification

As for the living quarters - it seems you have the majority of the ships' area devoted to them; in a ship where space is at a premium and profits should be maximised it would appear (to me) that people would convert the additional space to extra cargo space, or weaponry, unless it was a luxury version for taking a VIP places. Anyhoo, differences of interpretation!

@CSOTB: That's an interesting site; hadn't come across that before. Some interesting ideas about making equipment prices and effectiveness depend on the ship.

Given that the RL(tm) Long distance lorry driver has a bed above/behind his driver's seat and "we" in Oolite (in the small one crew ships) are the equivalent of the independent truck driver - I think there'd be almost no cabin space - with the addition of a waste disposal system - probably not even a shower (given water takes up room and is best saved for drinking).

An additional thought/suggestion/observation.

TCs - the actual cargo pod - is only any good for stuff that fits inside of it, irrespective of its weight (or do I mean mass?) - my thought is this - you buy 1TC of "machinery" in your Cobra MkIII, then you're shipping the "Acme "Easy Life" Gizmo", 250 of them in fact, but you're not moving a combine harvester from a low tech industrial world to a low tech Agricultural world - for me - for those kind of things - is the reason that Boas, Pythons and Anacondas (in particular Annies) exist in the Ooniverse - because their large open holds can take large single pieces of equipment - of course the crude stock trade system of Oolite doesn't allow this, but it would be nice if it did.

Dear Cobra MkIII Commander - I thank you for your interest in shipping the 26TC Turbine to Diso but our engineers assure me that you do not have the physical hold space to accommodate the turbine as a single piece as required by the contract

DaddyHoggy wrote:

Given that the RL(tm) Long distance lorry driver has a bed above/behind his driver's seat and "we" in Oolite (in the small one crew ships) are the equivalent of the independent truck driver - I think there'd be almost no cabin space - with the addition of a waste disposal system - probably not even a shower (given water takes up room and is best saved for drinking).

In my sailing experience, I've seen many boats' interiors... the most minimalistic living quarters you'll find on the smallest sailing cruisers has a bunk, a galley, a foldable table and usually (in a space craft that would be always) a head; all these can be easily fitted in less than 4x2m living area inside the hull. The rest of a boat's length will be the engine room and steering gear on the stern (under the cockpit) and a small anchor locker on the bow.
Water and fuel have their proper deposits, but for long oceanic crossings, it's usual to fill every cupboard, nook and cranny with extra water containers and food (and some extra fuel jerry cans as deck load).

Micha wrote:

@CSOTB: That's an interesting site; hadn't come across that before. Some interesting ideas about making equipment prices and effectiveness depend on the ship.

@Micha: Not to derail the topic but notice as well the equipment takes up space, the incentive to change ships by eliminating the EQ_LARGE_CARGO_BAY and replacing the energy bomb with a one-shot random Hyperjump Device. Very good ideas in Elite A and will be experimenting with these in the future.

The TC may just be a specific volume with a weight rating as to how much the container is rated for without breaking. It could make sense to use the most dense tonne measured cargo to determine the volume. Add in the space for packing material and the structure of the container itself and you come up with a relatively small container. Big enough for a small car or a slave on the longest dimension.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

Micha wrote:

@CSOTB: That's an interesting site; hadn't come across that before. Some interesting ideas about making equipment prices and effectiveness depend on the ship.

@Micha: Not to derail the topic but notice as well the equipment takes up space, the incentive to change ships by eliminating the EQ_LARGE_CARGO_BAY and replacing the energy bomb with a one-shot random Hyperjump Device. Very good ideas in Elite A and will be experimenting with these in the future.

The TC may just be a specific volume with a weight rating as to how much the container is rated for without breaking. It could make sense to use the most dense tonne measured cargo to determine the volume. Add in the space for packing material and the structure of the container itself and you come up with a relatively small container. Big enough for a small car or a slave on the longest dimension.

But what is the most dense commodity? That far in the future, who knows.

RyanHoots wrote:

But what is the most dense commodity? That far in the future, who knows.

Hydrogen and stupidity!

Of course the original tun (on which the tonne ended up being based) was a barrel and was therefore a volume measurement. It was used for wine etc. contained 216 gallons (Imperial). The number of these barrels yould could get in a ship decided how much it could carry when fully loaded. It is interesting to do the conversion to a metric cubic equivalent, comes in at just under 1 cubic metre. That would be the cargo volume the container itself would need to be larger to provide support structure and power for cooling or heating the actual cargo.

Just some thoughts
Ironfist

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

Very good ideas in Elite A and will be experimenting with these in the future.

Definitely! Probably not for the Oolite 1.x future, but perhaps an "Oolite A" can be branched, or Oolite 2 will eventually be resurrected and some of these ideas can be incorporated.
Anyway, let's first iron out the last few bugs and get this MNSR going

Micha wrote:

in a ship where space is at a premium and profits should be maximised it would appear (to me) that people would convert the additional space to extra cargo space, or weaponry, unless it was a luxury version for taking a VIP places. Anyhoo, differences of interpretation!

It has to be borne in mind that these ships are generally a "commander's" home, where they are going to spend 90% of their time. It may even be that when docked at a station, most commanders will need to live in their ships, so the space within needs to be enough to be comfortable. kind of like a river barge / longboat.
If profits are to be maximised, the Adder isn't the best ship to use anyway. The Commander Alan Sugars of the Ooniverse would only use the Adder as a stopgap on the way to a decent tradeship. The Adder is, in my opinion, more of a ship for getting from A to B with enough speed and firepower to either hold one's own in a fight or run away. The canonical "wingfolding" system also points to it being a landlubber's ride for a jaunt out to the stars.

Smugglers or the like would, in a "mutable" environment, probably use a lot of the free space for cargo too. In my design there's a doorway between the cargo area and the cockpit. Unscrupulous pilots might widen that doorway and fit cargo canisters into the main living area too. The back wall of the cargo bay could be taken down and the extra space behind it used for cargo (and this is how NPC Adders can fit 5 TCs in their ships).

SOTB wrote:

http://elite.acornarcade.com/ships/adderdat.htm
I sort of view the adder as a dedicated smuggler's vessel for hauling a few cargo cannisters straight to a planet where maximum profit from contraband can be achieved. Perhaps the adder was never really intended to have a fuel scoop?

Good point, and one which would I agree with - only having a capacity for 2 canisters makes the cargo scoop redundant in many ways, but the need for a fuel scoop is still there. The availability of a scoop in Oolite means that it has to be incorporated in my "discussions" though.

That diagram is nice, though, and uses the same rough scale as me too! Nice that me and ArcElite agree on something for once!