Oolite Bulletins

Gimi wrote:

After an initial thumbs up from a lot of people, this proposal is slowly being picked apart in a major way (in my view). I have voiced several concerns I have regarding single point of arrival and what amounts to something akin to warp gates and an intra system "rail system" between points of interest. Frontier seem to be very keen on ensuring player interaction (understandable considering it's multi-player). I'm more concerned with freedom of movement. Given the huge model of the universe they are planning on using, there are going to be some compromises here I think.

Yeah, since they want "realistic" sizes for systems, things are going to get messy. What I don't quite see is how planets are going to get incorporated into this. The size of the Sidewinder and the "Distances are short (100s of metres) and can be crossed in a few seconds" bullet point imply in-space flight speeds of the order of 100m/s

So ... a station in low orbit (like the ISS, say) is at about 350km. So a straight surface-to-station flight is going to take about an hour, if you time it perfectly to reach its height just as its orbiting past, ignoring reference frame matching problems. So presumably a trip from a surface station to a space station would require local hyperspacing. Similarly a trip from surface station to surface station would only be at about Mach 0.3 - so would you then locally hyperspace from London to New York? I can see the FE2/FFE fans not being particularly happy with that.

Yes, I know, planetary landings are not in the initial game. But they do want to add them, so they presumably have some idea how they'll work with this later, and there seems to be some more immediate importance when it comes to fuel scooping from the upper atmospheres of gas giants/suns, too. In open space I think it'll all work fine, though.

Players targeting a ship entering fast travel will be shown the likely destination of that ship and can use that to pursue fleeing ships

A point of detail that arises here: can you target multiple ships at once? If so, is there a limit on how many you can target? Almost certainly those are questions for a later topic, but it makes a big difference to the utility of fast travel to escape a furball.

Gimi wrote:

My initial concern was with using a single point of arrival. Too much like a jump gate, so I suggested that, as more players arrive in a system, additional points are generated. Frontier didn't like this as they want players to be able to meet up at the arrival point. So I suggested a compromise combining something like this:

• Having an expiry time on the arrival points. If no ship has arrived within X min, a new arrival point is generated.

That's a good point, and would help to eliminate something akin to "camping" - although it will diminish the chances of ship-to-ship interaction. If the new arrival point is randomly generated, and it's at the outskirts of the solar system (Oort cloud? Heliopause? Kuiper belt? Outermost planetary orbit?), then - even using the closest one of these to the star, and sticking to the plane of the ecliptic - new arrivals might be generated a colossal distance away. If we assume a handwavium that a ship's arrival creates a subspace "dent", though, into which new arrivals are drawn, then maybe this "dent" can dissipate over time so that new arrivals end up coming in at a larger and larger random distance away from the original "dent", making a new "dent" of their own. So that ships can still be close-ish to each other, at least by the scale of the system.

Gimi wrote:

• In-system markers which are present in all systems, both explored and unexplored. The L1 and L2 points for the outermost and innermost celestial bodies of a system may be a solution. This would give the players some standard points they could arrange to meet at, but would ultimately lead to less player interaction.

This could be useful, but again, these points could be epically far away. If I arrive at the outskirts of a system, and the outermost planet is 180° around on its orbit, I'd have to cross the entire system from one end to the other to reach it (for reference, the diameter of Neptune's orbit is somewhere around 60AU, or about 5.58 x 10^9 miles - over 8 hours away at the speed of light ...)

Gimi wrote:

With regards to fuel, Frontier has deferred questions about this (there has been a few) to a future topic. It is quite clear though, that they intend to implement the need for fuel management for both inter and intra system travel. My view would be that for Inter system travel, fuel is a big thing, for intra system travel it should be a minor thing.

Fair enough ... although if it's a minor thing, the question is, how minor? If it hardly matters at all, is there any point in having it? Is it worth having things in the game that don't really matter except when they become immensely important? I'll wait and see what they come up with ...

cim wrote:

Yeah, since they want "realistic" sizes for systems, things are going to get messy.

Ooh ... yes, indeed! An hour to get to a station is impractical - as will be the several hours to get from one station to another one orbiting the same planet. The design document says

Ships have considerably smaller mass lock ranges than stations/planets etc.

though, so how this squares with travel in the vicinity of a planet, I don't know. The masslock radius for planets will not be able to reach out into orbit like it does in Elite/Oolite; it'll have to shut off a few miles from the ground, at most.

Having discussed in system travel in the DDF over the week end I can now safely say I understand why the Oolite developer team won't touch multi-player with a 10 foot pole. It brings up issues I would never have imagined as a non-programmer.

Gimi wrote:

Having discussed in system travel in the DDF over the week end I can now safely say I understand why the Oolite developer team won't touch multi-player with a 10 foot pole. It brings up issues I would never have imagined as a non-programmer.

<chuckles>

Elite: Dangerous - Shields
Finalized rule-set for shields from FD

Sandro Sammarco, Lead Designer- Elite: Dangerous wrote:

Hello backers!

Here for your perusal is our finalized rules-set for how we're going to make shields work. Once again, I'd like to say a big thank you to all who took part in the debate - the final result is hopefully simpler, without losing the focus of what we want to achieve (meaningful and fun shield interactions).

As usual, this post will remain in the DDF for a few days, then wend its way into the design archives.

Shield Systems

• A ship can be fitted with a shield system
  • Shield systems are optional
• For release 1, a shield system has either 1 or 2 zones in playable ships
  • Larger NPC ships can have more shield zones
  • Each zone describes an area of hull coverage
    • The sum coverage of all zones always completely covers the hull
    • In shield systems with 2 zones the coverage is split between fore and aft zones
  • Ship hulls determine the number of shield zones in a shield system
• The player must assign shield generator modules to the shield system
  • A single shield generator module must be assigned to a single shield zone system
  • 1 or 2 shield generator modules can be fitted to a system with 2 shield zones
    • If one shield generator module is fitted it’s values are equally divided between the two zones
    • If two shield generator modules are fitted each is assigned to an individual zone
      • The player must choose which shield generator module is assigned to the fore and which to the aft zone
  • Shield generator module assignment is carried out whilst docked
    • in later releases players will be able to manually assign shield generator modules by direct interaction
  • Each shield generator module provides the following combat parameters
    • Health – the amount of damage that can be absorbed before a shield zone collapses
      • A collapsed zone will reform at full health after a delay (low minutes)
    • Resistance – the amount of damage that is “soaked” by the shield before any damage is applied to the shield’s health
      • A shield generator module assigned to two shield
  • The shield system determines recharge rate – how much shield health is replenished over time when the shield is not under attack
  • Shield generator modules have a number of secondary parameters
    • Cost
    • Grid footprint
    • Power draw
    • Heat generation
    • Module health
• Additional shield generators create redundancy but generally speaking, two smaller shield generators are less efficient than a single, larger shield generator module.

Shield Interactions

• A shield system gives the player access to strategic and tactical decisions
  • The player makes strategic choices when outfitting a ship with shield generator modules
    • Redundancy verses efficiency
    • Cost versus effectiveness
  • During flight the player is able to use a simple interface to tactically push shields fore/aft
    • Recharge rate is upped to 75% for the pushed shield zones and reduced to 25% for the remaining shield zones
  • During flight the player can tactically deploy cells from a shield bank to stabilize damaged shields before they collapse
• As an attacker, a player is able to (whilst a shield is collapsed) target and attack shield emitters
  • Emitters that receive damage transfer the damage directly to the appropriate shield generator module, potentially destroying it or causing malfunctions
  • Targeting emitters is initially manual, though advanced sensors are able to provide varying levels of assisted aim

Shield Bank (Optional Module)

• Players can augment their shields performance by equipping their ship with an (optional) Shield Cell Bank
  • Shield cell banks are large installed systems that allow the player to restore a shield quickly to full health
    • Different shield cell banks provide the player with more shield cells
    • Shield cells can be used to stabilize a shield (massively increases shield recharge rate for a brief period of time)
    • Shield cells are ineffective on collapsed shields
    • Shield cells are consumed when used
  • Shield Cell Banks have the following properties and attributes:
    • They draw a fixed amount of power from the ships power plant when active
    • They have a mass and size limiting how many and in what way they can be put inside a ship
    • Number of cells: the maximum number of cells a cell bank fitted with
• Using a streamlined cockpit interface control the player can select a shield zone and apply a shield cell
  • Preferred options would be hotkeys for each shield zone or a “two-tap” (select shield, stabilize)
  • There is a slight delay from the player using a cell to the shield being restored (seconds)
    • A visual effect on the shield occurs during this delay which can be seen by other players

New topic in the DDF:
"Turn those machines back on!"
- Trading in Elite: Dangerous

Sandro Sammarco, Lead Designer - Elite: Dangerous wrote:

Hello again backers!

It's time to talk about trading. A big thanks to Matt Molloy (the latest designer to join the design team) and our dear Michael Brookes for helping out with this one!

This document outlines the player trading experience in Elite: Dangerous. Note that the details of the background simulation that feeds into the trading will be the subject of a future topic.

Goals

• Simple to use – the actual mechanisms of trading should be easy for the player to grasp. The complexities in trading come from the choices that the player makes.
• Provide interesting choice – trading should provide the player with interesting, but understandable choices.
• Risk/Reward – trading is a risk vs. reward activity and should provide the opportunity for players to balance risk with potential rewards.
• Impact the game world – player actions should have a noticeable effect on the game world. They enable player choices to determine the fate of aspects of the galaxy.
• Advance the player – trading should provide the player with the opportunity to advance in the game by supporting the player credits loop
  • Credits in trading are earned by selling commodities at a higher price than they were purchased for
  • Earning credits allows the following interactions
    • Repair ship damage
    • Replace ship consumables
    • Pay fines
    • Purchase ship module upgrades
    • Purchase additional ships
    • Buy more commodities, continuing a trade credit loop

Markets

• Markets are where the majority of trading takes place
  • Markets come in a variety of types which determine which goods can potentially be present
    • Space Stations – trades commodities and essential ship supplies
    • Shipyards – trades limited commodities, ships, ship modules, ship supplies
    • Black Markets – private markets accessible based on player reputation, trades illegal commodities
    • Pirate Bases – ignore fines and bounties, commodities, trades illegal commodities
    • Smuggler Bases – trades illegal commodities only
• The background simulation determines some properties of a market
  • Available commodities of allowed types
  • Quantities of commodities present
  • Commodity price modifications
• To determine a market’s properties the background simulation takes into account the following system data:
  • Supply and demand based on market location, e.g.
    • Agricultural location
      • Supplies Food
      • Demands Machinery, Fertiliser
  • Politics/laws
    • Determines which commodities are illegal
  • Population size and standard of living
    • Increases supply and demand of specific commodities
  • Meta events like conflicts and disasters
    • Affects commodity availability and prices
    • Can be generated by player actions
• Player trading in the system

Commodities

• There is a list of different commodities
  • Each commodity has a baseline value
    • This value is modified by background simulation
    • This value is modified by player trading
  • Based on background simulation data, rare alternate commodities can be generated
    • These commodities’ value increase the further the player is from the origin system
      • Value rarity modifiers are capped
• Some commodities require specialist ship equipment
  • Attempting to transport commodities of these types without said equipment has effects:
    • Spoiling – the commodity is ruined
    • Alteration – the commodity changes type
    • Contamination – the commodity becomes hazardous
• Packets of information can be obtained and traded like commodities
  • Tradable information includes:
    • System locations
    • Market locations
    • Resource gathering locations
    • Mission/event locations
  • Information packets automatically update the player’s galactic map as needed when they are acquired

Player to Player Trading

• Players can trade directly with each other
  • The player trade interface is available when both players are docked at the same market
  • The player trade interface is available when two players dock ships
• The player trade interface is a secure swap allowing players to transfer credits/cargo
  • Both players must accept the trade before it occurs
    • Acceptance must be redone by both parties after any change in the trade
  • Trading occurs in real-time and can be interrupted unless taking place at a space dock

Issues

• Synchronous transactions - as with any transaction based system, simultaneous transactions can occur. This affects trading in that two trades being placed could be more than is available for those trades. There are a few possible methods for avoiding this:
  • Fail both transactions
  • If the amount is small allow both transactions
  • Allow the first transaction seen by the server and reject the second
• Player trading effect – What do you see as the potential issues of unfettered player to player trade?

Don those thinking caps, and start thining and talking!

Useful Headings:

Markets
Commodities
P2P Trades
Background Sim
Market Location

You cool with me doing this for a change Gimi?

P2P trading, eh? Not only goods, but credits too? Hmm... thanks, Zieman.

Cody wrote:

P2P trading, eh? Not only goods, but credits too? Hmm... thanks, Zieman.

NP .
I already posted my concerns about that in the DDF, and a possible solution (to reduce the opportunity for money farming).

Zieman @ DDF @ Frontier Forums wrote:

If player to player trading is enabled, how will the prices be determined?

One way to reduce exploits would be to force current location's (legal) market for the commodity/commodities being traded prices. This way a player could buy from another player(s) stuff that's out of stock, at fair price.

Zieman wrote:

Cody wrote:

P2P trading, eh? Not only goods, but credits too?

I already posted my concerns about that in the DDF, and a possible solution (to reduce the opportunity for money farming).

Very difficult to restrict, though. From the design videos and ideas so far:
- you will be able to scoop up cargo
- you will be able to dump cargo to satisfy pirates
so that lets you (with an added trust requirement) trade commodities for arbitrary prices, which can effectively be used to trade money so long as you stick to commodities with reasonably stable prices.

Disallowing player-to-player credit transfer also really restricts other areas of the game (hired muscle, bribes, payment for information, etc.)

Other multiplayer games have found that if you provide:
a) a no-need-to-trust trade with restrictions
b) a need-to-trust trade without restrictions (perhaps inadvertently as a consequence of other actions)
what happens is that you end up with lots of people getting scammed with no real recourse because they don't want the trade terms offered in 'a', so they go for 'b' instead.

So I think they're right to make credits and goods tradable at whatever mutually acceptable arrangement can be agreed through the no-need-to-trust interface.

cim wrote:

... I think they're right to make credits and goods tradable at whatever mutually acceptable arrangement can be agreed through the no-need-to-trust interface.

Aye... I suppose it will happen, so it's best to control/restrict it in-game. It won't affect solo players, anyway. <wonders if a solo player could trade with NPCs>

Zieman wrote:

Sandro Sammarco, Lead Designer - Elite: Dangerous wrote:

• Impact the game world – player actions should have a noticeable effect on the game world. They enable player choices to determine the fate of aspects of the galaxy.

Hum ... apart from increasing the player-centricness of the game, turning us from being ordinary working joes in space into Big Damn Heroes™ (not a good thing, IMO), how is this going to work in multiplayer? Is everybody going to be out there determining the fate of aspects of the galaxy, at the same time? I can understand "having a small impact on the availability of certain commodities for a while, in a very low-population system", but we can't all be Luke Skywalker, surely?

This is potentially dangerous, I think, to the sense of scale. Where one single player can Make A Difference, on a regular basis, simply by playing the game, either things are so drastically precarious all the time that everything is in constant, confusing flux - or everything is really small-scale and low-watt, and is just sitting around waiting for some human being to show up and push the right button.

This might just be badly phrased: "determine the fate of aspects of the galaxy". If all they mean is "have a small local impact on commodity prices for a bit, if you've got a big ship full in a small system", fine. If they mean that every player is going to be a little Master of the Universe, that's not fine.

Disembodied wrote:

Zieman wrote:

Sandro Sammarco, Lead Designer - Elite: Dangerous wrote:

• Impact the game world – player actions should have a noticeable effect on the game world. They enable player choices to determine the fate of aspects of the galaxy.

Hum ... apart from increasing the player-centricness of the game, turning us from being ordinary working joes in space into Big Damn Heroes™ (not a good thing, IMO), how is this going to work in multiplayer? Is everybody going to be out there determining the fate of aspects of the galaxy, at the same time? I can understand "having a small impact on the availability of certain commodities for a while, in a very low-population system", but we can't all be Luke Skywalker, surely?

This is potentially dangerous, I think, to the sense of scale. Where one single player can Make A Difference, on a regular basis, simply by playing the game, either things are so drastically precarious all the time that everything is in constant, confusing flux - or everything is really small-scale and low-watt, and is just sitting around waiting for some human being to show up and push the right button.

This might just be badly phrased: "determine the fate of aspects of the galaxy". If all they mean is "have a small local impact on commodity prices for a bit, if you've got a big ship full in a small system", fine. If they mean that every player is going to be a little Master of the Universe, that's not fine.

I don't want to make a difference to the Galaxy! (might occasionally get drafted in to defend an area from pirates, courier something unexpected, rescue passengers from a stricken freighter/passenger ship etc) but it shouldn't be day to day and should still only have a local (entropic reputation?) effect...

Zieman wrote:

You cool with me doing this for a change Gimi?

Absolutely. Go ahead.

DaddyHoggy wrote:

I don't want to make a difference to the Galaxy! (might occasionally get drafted in to defend an area from pirates, courier something unexpected, rescue passengers from a stricken freighter/passenger ship etc) but it shouldn't be day to day and should still only have a local (entropic reputation?) effect...

Glad to see it's not just me ... I want to not matter; I want to be ignored; I want to be irrelevant, to be a microscopic dot on a microscopic dot, in the vastness of space. I definitely don't want to get the impression that, just before I turn up, all the NPCs are running around, bumping into each other and shouting "Places, people, places! Quick, quick! THE (or even A) PLAYER is coming!"

Disembodied wrote:

Glad to see it's not just me ...

Nope... me too!