Progress

[Norby]

Hmm... if a player is making mistakes like that in the market, I reckon they should be time-penalised.

I vote for the penalty also. The mO-Commodity Markets OXP is my favourite to make different buy and sell prices and I like this penalty: cause a few problems only if I am cautious but give much better merchant feeling (and lookout).

[pagroove]

Now that the Mac Trunk was downloadable again I just want to show some appreciation for the work done on 1.79. It feels so much more alive!

I witnessed al that action between the NPC's. Its fantastic. The new suns are way cool. Especially in combination with Wildeblood's Distant Suns!
Now going back to play some more!

[Switeck]

it makes the original cargo contract ("Take this load of Furs to that distant planet") seem a little strange

To me, it doesn't initially seem all that strange to read that as "Take A load of Furs to that distant planet".

It all hinges on whether cargo contracts are for fungible cargo or not. Currently they are, even though it creates the "oddity" of being able to sell off the cargo and buy similar cargo and deliver that as though nothing has changed.
But if the cargo is fungible, then crossing the galaxy chart to transport goods that are effectively equal to goods only a system or 2 away would be profitless and pointless.

Bulk hauling of generic cargo is all they amount to, which is needed to give big freighters something worthwhile to do with their massive cargo capacities.

Even if specialty contract hauling is added, bulk hauling should probably remain. You may not even start seeing specialty contracts till you've done a few bulk hauling contracts.

In either case, cargo contracts should be reasonably profitable. That's why I was editing them in the first place.

As for delays added for buying/selling cargo...it needs to be really short for big freighters or an Anaconda would spend hours/days at each main station it trades with. Cargo contracts are already heavily time constrained.

[Disembodied]

it makes the original cargo contract ("Take this load of Furs to that distant planet") seem a little strange

To me, it doesn't initially seem all that strange to read that as "Take A load of Furs to that distant planet".

It all hinges on whether cargo contracts are for fungible cargo or not. Currently they are, even though it creates the "oddity" of being able to sell off the cargo and buy similar cargo and deliver that as though nothing has changed.
But if the cargo is fungible, then crossing the galaxy chart to transport goods that are effectively equal to goods only a system or 2 away would be profitless and pointless.

Bulk hauling of generic cargo is all they amount to, which is needed to give big freighters something worthwhile to do with their massive cargo capacities.

The oddity comes from the fact that you're given a load of Furs straight away, even though they're identical to Furs the player can get elsewhere. What I'm suggesting is that the general cargo hauling contracts be changed from "Take this load of Furs ..." to (as you say) "Take a load of Furs ...". Requiring the player to source the Furs themselves would, I think, add another level to the contract - especially to the route planning. Do you risk taking an extra jump or two to pick up Furs at the best price? Or do you buy them at a less profitable rate, to make sure you make the delivery on time? And, as the player builds up the contract stock in their hold, they can still indulge in trading in other goods as they go - as long as they think they have the time. More factors to balance = more decisions to make.

In either case, cargo contracts should be reasonably profitable. That's why I was editing them in the first place.

I agree - but they shouldn't be unreasonably profitable.

As for delays added for buying/selling cargo...it needs to be really short for big freighters or an Anaconda would spend hours/days at each main station it trades with. Cargo contracts are already heavily time constrained.

Assuming that the devs use this idea at all, this would have to be factored in to the contract time. I don't think anyone would suggest that we increase the time it takes to carry out contracts, and keep all the contract times the same. It would need to be tested, and balanced. If it becomes harder to make a contract on time, then either the times should be increased or the penalties for failure (reputation drop) should be reduced. But equally, the time given on a contract should be sufficient to carry out the contract - not carry out the contract and make a load of extra cash on the side.

I also think that if it takes (say) a base time of 2 minutes per TC to load a Cobra III (giving a total turnaround time of 1 hour 20 minutes to unload and reload a 35TC cargo bay), it shouldn't necessarily take 2 minutes per TC on a Python, or a Boa, or an Anaconda. Bigger bays, bigger doors, bigger crews ... Perhaps different ship types could even have different per-TC loading times: maybe a Python could be nice and basic and quick to load and unload; whereas loading a BCC, with its beefed-up engines and power plant cramping the loading area, could be a much fiddlier affair.

This also brings in the possibility of a new bit of useful equipment: a mechanised loading system that can cut cargo loading times by X%. Or even the ability for the player to pay cash in the station for "expedited loading", perhaps. Or both. But I'd still like to see if it's possible to make stations in high-tech systems somehow more noticeably high-tech, and stations in low-tech systems more noticeably low-tech: on a TL13 station, the cargo glides in and out on automatic anti-gravity rafts; on a TL3 station, it's hauled in and out by grunts using hand trucks (with suitable clanking noises).

[Capt. Reynolds]

a whole lot of sense.

My take is that anything that can be done to introduce some more variety to trading as a whole is a good thing. I think it's one of the weakest points of the core game - as a new Commander, once you've got a bit of cash behind you, there are only a handful of items you're ever going to trade in, so it becomes about as interesting and challenging as refuelling your tank. Even after adding in as many variation-creating OXPs as I can get my hands on, trading is still the least interesting part of the game.

Taking this ball and running with it, I came up with the idea of competitive cargo contracts - I love the "no upfront fee but get the cargo yourself" concept, but if you add in the idea that other (NPC) traders might also get in on the action, you end up with the concept of "get there first and get the agreed contract price, get beaten and you've got yourself a hold full of whatever, have fun selling it". In-game notification could keep you informed of other people getting in on the contract, passing NPC dialogue could let you know that a competitor is in-system and maybe a Manifest Scanner as purchasable equipment (I think this has been mooted before, but as a piracy aid!) could lead to some interesting race-to-the-station (or even discreet laser-based "discouragement") events.

But I digress. Taking the ball and running with it, sometimes you go sideways!

[Diziet Sma]

Taking this ball and running with it, I came up with the idea of competitive cargo contracts - I love the "no upfront fee but get the cargo yourself" concept, but if you add in the idea that other (NPC) traders might also get in on the action, you end up with the concept of "get there first and get the agreed contract price, get beaten and you've got yourself a hold full of whatever, have fun selling it".

What you're describing sounds a lot like certain elements of cim's New Cargoes OXP. It makes trading into quite a challenge. I'm guessing you haven't tried it yet?

[Capt. Reynolds]

What you're describing sounds a lot like certain elements of cim's New Cargoes OXP. It makes trading into quite a challenge. I'm guessing you haven't tried it yet?

Actually, looking at my OXP folder, it seems I do have it - if I remember rightly, the first few worlds I went to after adding it had nothing to offer, so I sort of forgot about it. Might be worth another look soon, but right now I need my hold empty for an imminent Navy vs. Thargoid engagement, and all the lovely scoopables that brings!

[Cody]

Re the Integrated Targeting System: is there any way to clear the tracking-reticles?

[pagroove]

Maybe it it possible to make some elements of the new cargoes.oxp part of the core game. Maybe add corporations which offer different things or contact types? Like hauling construction parts for a construction company of hauling consumer electronics for a computer/entertainment company?

Edited to add:

Some more variations on the Bored now message would be welcome.

Such as:
'Finally some time to utilize the express teamaker',
'Those controllers need to hurry I'm on a thight deadline'
'Wake me up when it's our turn'
[Planetname] looks really beautiful from orbit

etc..etc..

[cim]

Re the Integrated Targeting System: is there any way to clear the tracking-reticles?

Not really, no - it's just whatever's in your target memory and still in range. Perhaps a way to clear the target memory would be useful - even if just as a script function you could set up some primable equipment for - what sort of case are you thinking of for wanting to do it?

Some more variations on the Bored now message would be welcome.

Almost all the messages either need several more variations adding, or just removing and leaving for OXPs to sort out. The latter option has definite advantages.

I think [trading is] one of the weakest points of the core game

I agree. I have a vague plan [1] for a way to make it more interesting, but there are two things which are putting it on my "OXP" list rather than my "core feature" list at the moment.

1) The trade system is very definitely "Elite" in origin: the modification I have in mind would keep the same names for goods and not much else. Even aside from the inherent controversy that also means it will make OXP stations have even less sensible prices for goods than they do now.

2) At the moment the point of the trade system is a low-risk low-reward way of getting money for your ship, so you can upgrade it and go do something riskier but more profitable - piracy, bounty hunting, courier work, OXP missions, whatever. Making it more interesting pretty much inevitably also means making it much harder for new players (both in the sense of "new save game" and "new to Oolite") to make a decent profit and get the first few key upgrades ... and that then requires other bits of rebalancing.

[1] I haven't thought it through in detail, but the key elements are:
- variance from average price based on NPC trader volume (which in 1.79 is based on the system's government and economy and that of the surrounding systems)
- "peak" economy for trade goods no longer being always "Rich Ind / Poor Ag" and vice versa.

[Switeck]

Requiring the player to source the commodity would be interesting, but then you probably won't be able to keep the profit predictable...or in some cases, even profitable at all!

In either case, cargo contracts should be reasonably profitable. That's why I was editing them in the first place.

I agree - but they shouldn't be unreasonably profitable.

My whole reason for changing them in the first place was almost exactly that -- gold/plat/gems sometimes were unreasonably profitable, but most of the other cargos weren't. They were really bad even at max reputation -- carry 100 TC of something at least 40 LY, get paid 100-1000 credits profit. You could lose reputation faster than that.


The replacement formulas I used cannot generate unreasonably large profits since it's forced to stay inside normal price ranges and gold/plat/gems max size is less, but even they sometimes have poor-paying contracts -- just fewer of them than the original.

[Cody]

... what sort of case are you thinking of for wanting to do it?

When loitering in a busy aegis, ID'ing all the ships launching and docking, the screen can become crowded with tracking reticles.
It's not really a problem - just thought I'd ask. It might be useful if it was primable, though.

[cim]

Probably the sensible thing to do would be to make it use the existing "defense / secondary target list" which all ships have, rather than having a separate list just for the player, and then the scripting commands to add and clear are already there.

(Side effect: player ships with turrets would really have to be careful about what they locked on to before, during or after a fight. They'd probably really want a "clear targets" item of equipment)

[Cody]

Some more variations on the Bored now message would be welcome.

Almost all the messages either need several more variations adding, or just removing and leaving for OXPs to sort out. The latter option has definite advantages.

You'd need a fair few variations, yes? I could probably come-up with some, for either core or an OXP.

[Diziet Sma]

(Side effect: player ships with turrets would really have to be careful about what they locked on to before, during or after a fight. They'd probably really want a "clear targets" item of equipment)

Sounds like a somewhat 'clunky' solution..