Oolite Bulletins

Can't wait to see it live then


The non-player centered universe... Well after all, the player is still the only real intelligent actor in this game and it is still a game and there is no way to avoid that the player is always and will always be something special. But well, I'm certainly not in the position to argue yet
I've to admit, I like the results so far. Great fun this game!

ralph_hh wrote:

Can't wait to see it live then

You are more than welcome to give it a try even right now if you want. You can download and install a copy of the current development version nightly build and see how it feels for you. Having new players testing this might actually be a very good idea.

You can install the nightly build in parallel with the official 1.80 version; the nightly installers are modified so that by default they don't interfere with an existing Oolite installation. Only thing you need to make sure: Backup your save game files or use copies of them for playing the nightlies. This is because games saved with the version currently in development cannot be loaded back to 1.80.

cim wrote:

Venator Dha wrote:

I would not like to see any change to the game's start balance, but wonder if some more information as to what a safe/unsafe system is, what good tactics (run away) are for a new player when the game is launched.

It's covered both in the in-game tutorial (briefly) and in the PDF documentation (more extensively) already. Suggestions for making it more obvious in-game would be welcome, though.

It would be a bit of a job, but personally, I'd like to see it that the very first time a fresh Jameson presses F1, instead of immediately launching, they get to meet Mr Gimlet, who takes them through his spiel.. said spiel being slightly updated to cover the kind of information mentioned above. Once that's out the way, they get to launch. A way of re-triggering Mr Gimlet, perhaps via the Options menu, would probably be a good idea as well.

One of the problems with the PDF documentation is that, on Linux in particular, there's no way to ensure that a newcomer even knows the documentation exists. How we deal with that, I'm not entirely sure.

ralph_hh wrote:

The non-player centered universe... Well after all, the player is still the only real intelligent actor in this game and it is still a game and there is no way to avoid that the player is always and will always be something special.

Believe me, quite a few people have gone to considerable effort over the last 10 years, to make sure that, so far as possible, that's not the case.. as things now stand, there are very few situations in which the game treats the player any differently than it does the NPCs, or vice-versa.

ralph_hh wrote:

I've to admit, I like the results so far. Great fun this game!

With that, I couldn't agree more!

another_commander wrote:

ralph_hh wrote:

Can't wait to see it live then

You are more than welcome to give it a try even right now if you want. You can download and install a copy of the current development version nightly build and see how it feels for you. Having new players testing this might actually be a very good idea.

Seconded.. excellent idea.

Diziet Sma wrote:

One of the problems with the PDF documentation is that, on Linux in particular, there's no way to ensure that a newcomer even knows the documentation exists. How we deal with that, I'm not entirely sure.

Make the installer point to it. Or perhaps even simpler and more effective, offer a pdf download link next to the game download link. I bet most people will browse it while downloading and installing the game.

The Getting Started page at oolite.org already has links to Mr Gimlet and the reference sheet, btw.

Another idea - while I'm looking at "allowing NPCs to keep a primary target in certain conditions" - is to modify the cloaking device a bit. At the moment it can be ridiculously overpowered (especially if an OXP ship has marginally higher energy recharge than the stock FDL) to the extent that many mission OXPs find some way to prevent or discourage its use.

What if instead it:
- prevented NPCs from selecting you as a primary target or a defense target (plasma turret target, etc.)
- prevented NPCs from firing missiles (hardheads as before will continue to aim at your last known position)
- significantly worsened NPC aim at you
...but didn't make them lose primary target completely.

You can't just press 0 to escape a fight, but if you press it before they start attacking you can probably sneak past, and in a more general furball they'll get distracted onto someone else and then won't be able to reacquire you.

I think this would make the NPC behaviour to player cloak match the player ability to respond to NPC cloak a bit better - it makes things more difficult, especially at long range, but you can still shoot at them. What do you think?

On the documentation obviousness sub-topic... a few more ideas
- moving the tutorial option up one place so that it's the default "new game" option might help. Starting a new game is rare enough, I think, that this wouldn't be a great inconvenience to experienced players.

- the government indicators viewable on both F6 and F7 already explain how dangerous the system is likely to be, but only in a way that helps if you've either read the documentation or are familiar with the genre. So perhaps an additional line on F7 below government that puts in brackets how dangerous the system is? (It could be removable with gui-settings.plist for traditionalists and experienced players)

- intercepting F1 to display help might not work too well (for technical reasons it's really difficult to do anything but launch on an F1 press), but one similar thing that might work is putting new players (and perhaps even legacy savegame loads) straight into the "name your commander and ship" interface, and give the "name recorded" page of that a bit more content at least hinting that further documentation exists.

Short answers: yes, and yes!

Seconding Cody.. yes to everything in both of cim's previous posts.

All sounds good to me. I particularly like the proposed cloak-related changes.

Smivs wrote:

All sounds good to me. I particularly like the proposed cloak-related changes.

+1 from me!

The trick is to maintain as Disembodied said: "Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck." whilst at least pointing out where the beaches can be found.

cim wrote:

On the documentation obviousness sub-topic... a few more ideas
- moving the tutorial option up one place so that it's the default "new game" option might help. Starting a new game is rare enough, I think, that this wouldn't be a great inconvenience to experienced players.

Yes, that's a good idea.

cim wrote:

- the government indicators viewable on both F6 and F7 already explain how dangerous the system is likely to be, but only in a way that helps if you've either read the documentation or are familiar with the genre. So perhaps an additional line on F7 below government that puts in brackets how dangerous the system is? (It could be removable with gui-settings.plist for traditionalists and experienced players)

I wonder if this can be taken a little further:
- on F6 how about the choice for colouring the systems by government type (red -anarchy to green -corp.state) as the default, thus giving an indication of difficulty (without explicitly stating it).
- on F7 expanding the description on this page for the stating worlds e.g.

Lave : The Tyrant of Lave has reached an accommodation with several pirate groups in exchange for their support. Pirates can be a problem for a poorly equipped commander. The Tyrant recommends payment of their tolls with cargo for an easy life.
Leesti : The Leesti Amalgamated Corporation have created a peaceful system for all visitors. Only disrupted by sporadic raids from Riedquat's fabled pirates. Commanders are advised to be watchful upon exit from Witchspace.
Reidquat : Base of the fabled Pirates of Reidquat, who are considered to be the surge of the sector and a pain in the side of the peaceful governments of Diso and Leesti. Only experienced Commanders dare to visit, being able to say that you have seen Reidquat will mark you out as a pilot of some competence.

cim wrote:

- intercepting F1 to display help might not work too well (for technical reasons it's really difficult to do anything but launch on an F1 press), but one similar thing that might work is putting new players (and perhaps even legacy savegame loads) straight into the "name your commander and ship" interface, and give the "name recorded" page of that a bit more content at least hinting that further documentation exists.

Good idea.

Having read through 3 pages of combat balancing suggestions and arguments, I wonder if there is a kind of conclusion, a summary of the things that are actually going to be implemented - and those that aren't?

Just my two cents:

I found the start of Oolite much different from Elite. While in Elite you start gathering some targeting practice, in Oolite you quickly learn to stay away from the bad boys until you have injectors and a military laser. My suggestion is to create a fairly safe corner of 3-4 home planets where there is no more than 1-2 pirates at once. Start some target practice. If you wish to have a reason for that, you may call it police, military, whatever.

Later in the game, you are still well advised to avoid goint head first into a battle with more than 3 enemies. That reduces the game to rear-laser sniping. Nothing wrong with this. You can't try to make face to face fight with outnumbering enemies realistically dangerous and NOT result in this evasive tactics. If you wish to avoid the rear sniping, you will either be going into Elite-style cheating, giving the player an advantage in long-range front targeting and fire/shield power or alternatively make the player fleeing from such battles. Now, those battles are the reason why we play oolite, aren't they? It will never be realistic to win in 8:1 battles. Who cares? It's fun! Don't cut the range of the military laser!

Actually, being competent now, after a few days as a newbie to Oolite, I like the combat balance the way it is.

Another thought occurs regarding the mass lock: I like to jump almost into a station to reduce docking time. This relies on soft brakes. Hard brakes would require longer fuel injection, bad, if the fuel was used up. Maybe the mass lock radius of the station (or is it the planet?) can be reduced to compensate for the fast brake.