Oolite Bulletins

RedSpear: good stuff: But, are you aware that the 'Thargoid takeover' is implemented already, in my InterstellarTweaks pack?

UK_Eliter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 2:32 pm

RedSpear: good stuff: But, are you aware that the 'Thargoid takeover' is implemented already, in my InterstellarTweaks pack?

Nope... I know little and understand less

I don't think I've ever been to interstellar space, despite all my years here.
Never been in a sufficiently capable vessel to think it was a good idea I suppose...

Redspear: in that case, I fear that you would not last long against . . this . .



Also, though: you don't die in real life if you get killed in the Ooniverse! So why not give interstellar space a go?

UK_Eliter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:46 pm

Redspear: in that case, I fear that you would not last long against . . this . .

Best equipped ship I ever flew was a second hand adder with one energy bank.
What are you flying there? A space station?

UK_Eliter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:46 pm

Also, though: you don't die in real life if you get killed in the Ooniverse! So why not give interstellar space a go?

That's just what they want you to believe

I'll get there one day... and doubtless near immediately want to change 5 or 6 things about it

Redspear wrote:

Best equipped ship I ever flew was a second hand adder with one energy bank.

You are pulling my leg!

Redspear wrote:

What are you flying there? A space station?

A Fer-de-lance 3G 'Delux-o-tank' (sic) variant - which I noticed is not listed here. I'll try to add it to that page.

UK_Eliter wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:31 am

You are pulling my leg!

Honest! I've flown a MkIII of course but never a kitted out one.

UK_Eliter wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:31 am

A Fer-de-lance 3G 'Delux-o-tank' (sic) variant - which I noticed is not listed here. I'll try to add it to that page.

Holy smokes it's got some energy, and 8 pylons too!

BTW, no offence: your ooniverse, your game, more power to you

redspear wrote:

no offence: your ooniverse, your game, more power to you

Well, one needs something like that, or else witchspace remains 'suicide space'. Also, the ship is very expensive. Indeed I notice that it was ludicrously more expensive than the next model down (the next '3G' model down - though in some ways the 'tank' is a downgrade . .). So I'll reduce the price a bit (EDIT: because I am the creator of the ship).

Ideas for making more of the Generation Ships. Part 2

Another possibility might be, upon encountering a GS, to find it being attacked by the bugs and having an opportunity to come to its defense. Or to find a bug-ridden GS attacking a settler's GS. I understand from Phkb that his Broadcast Comms could work well here.

Or to lead a small fleet of defenders (one's own? some chaps on board the GS? See Ramirez's Squadron Command System - he was hoping to add more functions to it).

What would be superb would be coming to an invaded GS with bugs on board and being able to help the settlers fight off the invaders. I'm sure that the coding for this would be extremely demanding.

Do the GS's really not have any weapons at all? Maybe some of them might be equipped with Twin Single Plasma Cannon or primitive Railguns? The settlers may have needed to develop and add them to their ships on encountering Thargoids.

One presumes that ramming is not really an option...

Ideas for making more of the Generation Ships. Part 3

So going back to my first relevant post, what would the inside of these things look like. As a player I would not expect to be able to wander around the entire inside of the ship (unless it was entirely/mostly deserted or infested by bugglies).

BeeTLe BeTHLeHeM gives this map for the inside of his Orbital Stations:




Might a similar scheme for the inside of a visited GS look like this?

- Docking Portal (How about on the outside of the GS? Is this possible?) <> AirLock <> Some sort of corridor?

- Corridor leads to other stuff:
- other corridors
- lifts/escalators/staircases etc.

ie: Some sort of maze, in effect with rooms/suites/warehouses etc off the corridors

Player apprehended on entry and brought through maze to leader of GS. Meeting with the esteemed leader.

After meeting, player brought through another maze and installed in a suite if the meeting goes well, and can start exploring. Here the "map proper" begins. Corridor outside suite. Other suites. Dining hall. Section with children and school. Section with people gathering/socialising (gardens?). Section with people being entertained (stage? cinema? etc).

Possibilities to do some of the stuff Redspear mentions above: trade, go and get goodies and then come back. If the GS is in witchspace, then could maybe use Switeck's Variable Jump Drive to get there?

Edited to add: found this earlier in this thread:

Commander McLane wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:42 pm

Just to bring the thread a little back to where it started:

Yes, Generation Ships have a dock (at the time when they began their journey, the colonists must have got on board somehow, didn't they?). You can't miss it. It's the huge "hole" right under its "nose". (It really looks like a face with a nose and a HUGE mouth.)

And no, they are not dockable. As long as they are in flight, the population on the Generation Ship is in complete isolation from the outside world. No interference is wished for. And the dock probably wouldn't be compatible to modern technology, anyway.

However, as said before, I have been working on an OXP, the story of which evolves around a Generation Ship that is about to make landfall in its destination system. The only problem is: The main planet is of course inhabited by an indigenous race, and they are of course not entirely thrilled by the prospect of getting colonised from the human past (to make things worse, all neighbouring systems in reach are in fact inhabited by "Human Colonials"). So the player gets sucked into an epic conflict with extremely sensitive issues to be solved. At a certain point during the story he will have to try to make contact with the ever so slowly approaching Generation Ship, and find out what's going on inside its bulky hull. So he may try to dock with it, and see what happens...

And now enough of spoilers. First of all, have fun with Draco_Caeles' original OXP, of which I only revised the scripting part (with D_C's approval and to his excitement, by the way).

This was going to be McLane's Ghostsfromthepast.oxp

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:26 pm

Ideas for making more of the Generation Ships. Part 3
BeeTLe BeTHLeHeM gives this map for the inside of his Orbital Stations:

While I believe a church is a nice gimmick and should not be missing in Oolite, I am wondering whether all generation ships only follow one religion.
Similar, space stations could have facilities to praise religion however they might vary across star systems, species, ...

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:26 pm

Ideas for making more of the Generation Ships. Part 3
BeeTLe BeTHLeHeM gives this map for the inside of his Orbital Stations:

I think we're essentially comparing a shopping centre/trade market with a time capsule. The builders of the latter want neither interference nor access prior to the allotted moment.

If that's the case then either:

• it is indeed the allotted moment (as in Commander McLane's scenario).
• there is some other exceptional circumstance.

In short, I think the idea and character of a main station is that the player should dock with it, whereas the idea and character of of generation ship is that it the player should not. The docking port should be there for the exception and not the rule I think. As ever, your mileage may vary...

Redspear wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:32 am

In short, I think the idea and character of a main station is that the player should dock with it, whereas the idea and character of of generation ship is that it the player should not. The docking port should be there for the exception and not the rule I think. As ever, your mileage may vary...

Ahem!

stranger wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:20 am

How Ooniversum can be interesting for an explorer?
Let's face it, the potential of this open world is poorly realized. And here the claims are not against the developers of the game, but against the community of addon developers. At first, addon developers drew inspiration from the lore that grew out of Holdstock's Dark Wheel. In Ooniversum, in addition to the hermit asteroids, which are in the default game, there are deep space dredgers, generation ships, thargoid craft – all these legends of the old Elite have been brought to life. If anything, now, the legendary planet RAXXLA can be technically created – of course, linking its search with a non-trivial plot. There is a legendary space graveyard in the Tionisla system, there are three more systems with individual settings, and finally, there is a promising, but alas, abandoned project The Famous Planets. There are finally some epic missions like Trident Down. Alas, this is practically everything that now exists and almost all of this has become so outdated that it urgently needs at least a cosmetic update. Ooniversum is not attracted by the concept of world-exploration. The first meeting with the colossal generation ship, of course, is impressive, but only just – I saw it, took a screenshot as a souvenir, uploaded it into the gallery and forgot. This meeting gives neither answers to old secrets, nor ties to new plots. The pulsar in the Tianve system, the orbital cemetery in the Tionisla system – the same issue. The first time one look's it is interesting, but nothing more. There are no storylines for these locations.

One hardly ever bumps into a generation ship. How many times have you done so, Redspear? I have yet to see even one. For the people who wish to do nothing other than fight or trade, fine. Most of us want more, no?

And, personally, I think that BeeTLe BeTHLeHeM's Life in the Frontier is very unfinished. But it does give us a mechanism for making more of what we already have in Oolite. The map, as you point out is irrelevant, as are his little adventures. But we can create a different one (I thought I'd made that clear, sorry). Life in the Frontier gives us an adaptable template which we can do something interesting with.

The generation ship idea is evocative and compelling. It would be nice to realise some of that magic in Oolite. As felt by the contributors to the many pages of this thread.

Here's an earlier and different take:

Pangloss wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:40 pm

I just love this idea. An OXP that can sit in your folder for decades and may never be used by you. You may even be in a system with one of the ships in it, but (for example) you were just passing through, using the system to scoop-fuel, and missed the only chance you'd ever get to seeing one of these beautiful antiques.

A glimpse inside one of these ships...



Click here for a huge image from closer to the inside surface of one of the cylinders, showing topography.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:49 am

Ahem!

What did I say that contradicts or dismisses anything you have quoted in your last reply?

Even if it did it would only be someone else's opinion, right? And opinions aren't the same as facts, are they?

Docking circumstances should be exceptional, I opined, that doesn't mean they can't be made so. Nor does it mean that other forms of interaction are impossible or uninteresting - I've already suggested several recently on this thread including one with docking!

If someone else sees gemeration ships (or pretty much anything else for that matter) differently than I do then no problem. But the idea that one's first thought upon encountering a generation ship would be to dock with it unchallenged does change its character somewhat - it would be contrary to the lore, not in support of it.

Really want to dock? Maybe a time limit before you are sealed in? A few characterful lines of how 'empty' and desolate it is? But the service map created by BB suggests conventional docking, your examples leisurely exploration.

Want to do more with generation ships? I like it.
Dock with them to explore/interact? Needs a good excuse IMHO, a mission perhaps.

Redspear wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:28 am

Really want to dock? Maybe a time limit before you are sealed in? A few characterful lines of how 'empty' and desolate it is? But the service map created by BB suggests conventional docking, your examples leisurely exploration.

Want to do more with generation ships? I like it.
Dock with them to explore/interact? Needs a good excuse IMHO, a mission perhaps.

I'm sorry, I have absolutely no desire to blindly copy BB and reuse his code exactly as it currently stands for the Generation Ships. The Generation Ships should have a special feel (just as you want a special feel for your species' stations), and my idea was to use his template of enabling activities on board the Oolite orbitals to do something equivalent for the Generation Ships, thus conveying that GS special feel. The idea was to use his idea not his map of a station, or blindly copy his encounters. Was this not obvious? I thought I had suggested that one would be met in after entering the GS. That one would be interrogated and then escorted to the being-in-charge. One would be interrogated again. If some sort of modus vivendi was reached one would be escorted to quarters and then possibly allowed minimal freedom to explore the immediate surroundings. Was this not apparent in what I'd written before?

Just as his oxp gives a feel (although sadly pretty much the same for every single station in Oolite) to docking with a station, I was proposing using his template (or cag's Station Options) to give a different feel for the Generation Ships.

And this would be in addition to your suggestions above. There are a number of different generation ships, so it stands to reason that there would be a number of quite different encounters with them - again, as you suggested above - depending on their wishing to ignore outsiders, or desperately need help from outsiders, or being curious, or wishing to convert outsiders to the autocephalous Scottish Catholic Church, or being deserted, or being invaded by Thargoids (invasion ongoing - or invasion complete), etc., etc.. Some of these encounters might involve boarding the GS - either by conventional docking or through an airlock (something needing discussion). If one boarded a GS, unless it were empty/deserted/Buggle-ificated, one would not be allowed to explore at will, but there might be small area which one could explore, in the immediate vicinity of one's quarters (if allotted such).

Speaking for myself, if I ever develop the skills, I suspect that it would be far easier for me to use BB's template and replace it with my own stuff (as I did with the Digebitian variant of Broadcast Comms) than to wrestle with cag's Station Options (which is probably superior in terms of what one can do with it, but where I would have to create everything from scratch and then get mugged by malevolent masses of marauding semi-colons). If you were to do it, you might well find cag's option makes rather more sense.

More ideas.

Yes, a mission. Why not? And at least two possibilities: one is sent by the mission to the GS, boards it, etc. Or one discovers the GS, and then the inhabitants lure one into a mission ("we desperately need 3000 TC of pig-iron (rare, TL3 or lower) for our life-support system - please help us - people are dying every day...").

Thinking about Generation Ships
They are designed to colonise "new" planets. They are presumably too large to take off from the planet surface, and too large to land normally (almost 19 miles long and almost 4 miles in diameter). So the colonists would need transport to the GS. It would therefore either have some sort of docking bay and/or a massive air-lock structure to allow thousands access. It would also need some way of allowing parties to land on the planet surface to further analyse its viability for colonisation, and to eventually ferry the colonists down there. (see Beusrior (Rough Guide)).

There would have to be antiquated space-ships on board, no? They might have become unusable through deterioration or cannibalisation of parts for more vital machinery... The docking bay might have broken down, or be incompatible with all/many/larger modern ships. Or an anti-technological religion might have convinced the inhabitants to destroy everything...

If we could create one or two such scenarios for the GS, this could lead to better things for (eg) the Lave Academy (go and visit and meet up with your old astrology astrogatory tutor...), or Tionisla Chronicle Array, or TOGY, etc

The idea was to use his idea not his map of a station, or blindly copy his encounters. Was this not obvious?

Without wishing to generate a quote war (cue multiple quote boxes...), it was indeed and remains obvious.

My point was not that I thought the specifics of BB's model unsuitable (like yourself, I'd assumed that was obvious) but rather the nature of such a model as unsuitable.

BB's model offers a branching diversification of choice.
This works great for a coriolis station because one of the station's main purposes is to attract trade, therefore pilots and therefore any form of amusing them might appear desirable. It's somewhere you might like outsiders to explore, especially if that exploration involved spending credits.

My argument is not that those very same things (e.g. passenger lounge, cinema, hotel etc.) would likely be unsuitable for a generation ship (like yourself, I'd assumed that was clear), but rather that the very idea of docking to explore via a similar branching diversification of choice would not work so well for a generation ship.

Elite manual, Redspear's emphasis wrote:

Generation Ships Before the development of the WS Thru-Space drive, in all its various forms, interstellar travel occurred in large, self-sustaining environment ships - Generation Ships - most of which have now been logged and their progress monitored. There are more than seventy thousand of these immense vessels ploughing their way through the galaxy, some of them into their 30th generation. The penalty for interference with such a vessel is marooning.

Now I think I understand the reverse psychology of telling someone they can't do something - 'you're not meant to dock, so all the more reason to! It must be really cool inside whatever they're hiding!' Except that what they are is effectively culture bubbles protected from outside disease, technology and communication. Contact for them would be potentially disasterous.

Rather they become interesting when something goes wrong (thus my prior examples and also see 'missions' below).

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:55 pm

I thought I had suggested that one would be met in after entering the GS. That one would be interrogated and then escorted to the being-in-charge. One would be interrogated again. If some sort of modus vivendi was reached one would be escorted to quarters and then possibly allowed minimal freedom to explore the immediate surroundings. Was this not apparent in what I'd written before?

Again ,it was.
Rather than the branching model, you suggest a strict, formalised introduction before... moving onto a branching model of exploration.

To my mind that's just installing an atrium, because upon leaving it ...

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:26 pm

Here the "map proper" begins

...and we're into the branching model again.

However you set it up, such a model is, in my flawed, biased, ill-informed, woefully ignorant, highly subjective, borderline non compos mentis opinion, not a good fit for the reasons I have tried to explain.
Get it?

If you disagree then that's fine, there's plenty of room to.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:55 pm

Yes, a mission. Why not? And at least two possibilities: one is sent by the mission to the GS, boards it, etc. Or one discovers the GS, and then the inhabitants lure one into a mission ("we desperately need 3000 TC of pig-iron (rare, TL3 or lower) for our life-support system - please help us - people are dying every day...").

Very similar to one of my suggestions above - no problem with that, it would only require access to the docking bay.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:55 pm

Thinking about Generation Ships
They are designed to colonise "new" planets. They are presumably too large to take off from the planet surface, and too large to land normally (almost 19 miles long and almost 4 miles in diameter). So the colonists would need transport to the GS. It would therefore either have some sort of docking bay and/or a massive air-lock structure to allow thousands access. It would also need some way of allowing parties to land on the planet surface to further analyse its viability for colonisation, and to eventually ferry the colonists down there. (see Beusrior (Rough Guide)).

We need an 'empty' planet though, don't we? and by default there aren't any - we could make one but there would likely be knock-on effects.
c.f. Commander McLane's idea that you quoted upthread.