Vector Map

[Disembodied]

Suppose there was an unseen species, or one of the participating species, manipulating all the others into war for their own nefarious ends?

Or, all the species are descended from the same common ancestor (after all, they all seem to be similar at least one Earth genus) and the unseen uber-race are either trying to stop the war, or encouraging it as a means of accelerated development.

Just thought of a related question: Is there already a backstory about which is the OLDEST Galaxy?

It depends how canonical you want to get. Lave and a bunch of other planets from Galaxy 1 can be found in the later game Frontier. Now, attempts to canonically marry Elite, Frontier and Oolite are fraught, to say the least, and require a lot of mashing together. But it is generally considered canonical that Lave is only some 50 light-years away from Earth. If we assume a common terrestrial origin for all the various species (which I'm in favour of), then I suppose Galaxy 1 could be counted as the "oldest". Human colonisation of planets in Galaxy 1 predate the discovery of the Galactic Hyperdrive (and indeed witchspace). If the Co-operative started around Lave, then politically Galaxy 1 is the oldest, too. But if you assume (like me) that the various inhabited non-human-colonial worlds have been around for tens of millions of years at least since they were seeded, then they're probably all equally old, since none of them contain (what we assume to be) the origin planet Earth.

[ClymAngus]

I feel we're fast approaching an impasse here.

As long as galcorp holds power in a sector then the mapping is easy, the explanation is easy. This one map is a bit of an indicator of the wider aspects of the ooniverse. As this is frontier territory I suppose we should feel blessed that no-one popped up saying. Well of course the fact that earth like animals are seen through out the universe is proof of god and the wider forces of creationism..........

That would just do my head in.

Anyway;

So all Felines being one species is not out of the question

True, but that kind of flies in the face of the previous line:

First Human are not homogenous we have races that are tall/short, fat/skinny, red, yellow, brown, black and white and thats before you get into further details

So humans are diverse but cats could be unitarian? All evidence of separation ON earth suggests very quick alterations genetically to fill any environmental gap that is available. Different planetary condition will only exaggerate this. Intellectually, we've seen what happens when a group of people are separated from a main group. They strive towards autonomy, mainly through alienation of the culture that formed them.

I really am trying to incorporate most of your ideas. But I don't think I'm getting the core reasoning behind this argument.

Further you have also to question the motives of those (in game) who compiled the descriptions

One guesses they were probably too busy wrestling with assembler language to care. The question we have to ask is; we have an old thing here. Now do we rebuild stonehenge or leave it as it is? Your statement is a valid one, but there is little agreement on how far you should go with any "fix". The argument can be made that to improve is to loose the very thing that drew people to the game in the first place.

It's classic conservatism vs progressivism, both have advantages and pitfalls.

I have trouble with the idea that all the populated worlds are only light years apart. Either only in the sectors and regions near by or alternatively across the whole galaxy. There is no chance that the whole galaxy is populated that way that's just too implusable and then where would the species be that look like other earth species (say squid or spiders) or species that look nothing like any earth species at all. Either there are limited (sectors does that) or they are genetically engineered by humans. If they are genetically engineered by humans why are they in control of their own worlds I doubt humans would let them get that strong.

Eventually they wouldn't have much of a choice. In a corporate world it is inadvisable to nerve gas an entire planet of consumers when you can just sell them stuff. Generally this statement is more justification. Galcorp DO control a lot of stuff still. (just not a lot of Gal4) Through (as I see it) economics.

How the sectors idea works with the distribution is to let the worlds in GalCop sectors be a mixture (GalCop expansion policy) but outside of these its mostly one species or another. Yes this is artificial but it minimises the amount of artificialness.

I can see this as an eventual conclusion of mankinds genetic expansion.
I have great difficulty with the odds of a one (let alone a group) of earth life forms with high intellect spontaneously evolving independently. There are a myriad of way genetics can solve the same problem of survival. It would be lightly arrogant to say that the earth has seen even a shaving of all possible viable forms. To be clear, I can role with about 80% of what your saying it's your genesis I'm having serious reservations about.

Further with the species sector idea there would be many other species dotted about the galaxy that we haven't met. Three could easily be found within the loop of the 8 sectors based on the distributions I have shown so far of the known species. (Yes those three if they exist would most likely be wiped out by the Thargoids in my scenarios.)

Isn't that generally covered by the cover all technical term humanoid? Next posting;

Ok reading through this the main flaws your seeing are the speed of society creation from one genetic root and the square blockiness of established space.

The main issue I see people have with the empire of the lobster idea is the statistical improbability of so many earth forms appearing off world.

That's fair, good questions all. None of which I intend to answer.

I'm going top find a lizard space and cat space. I'm not going to explain it but just set it as another reason (among many) for the citizens of this troubled gal to merrily kill each other.

We will embellish, not limit, with your ideas sir.

[PhantorGorth]

Anyway;

PG wrote:
So all Felines being one species is not out of the question

True, but that kind of flies in the face of the previous line:
PG wrote:
First Human are not homogenous we have races that are tall/short, fat/skinny, red, yellow, brown, black and white and thats before you get into further details

Ehh? How? I am saying that Humans (one species) have different races
and then say that Blue Bony Felines and Fierce Yellow Felines therefore can be different races of the same Feline species. How is that not 100% compatible with each other?

So humans are diverse but cats could be unitarian?

I am not saying that at all. (see above)

All evidence of separation ON earth suggests very quick alterations genetically to fill any environmental gap that is available. Different planetary condition will only exaggerate this. Intellectually, we've seen what happens when a group of people are separated from a main group. They strive towards autonomy, mainly through alienation of the culture that formed them.

Totally agree. How much time that takes before changes are noticeable will depend on the planetary conditions and mutation rate.

PG wrote:
Further you have also to question the motives of those (in game) who compiled the descriptions

One guesses they were probably too busy wrestling with assembler language to care. The question we have to ask is; we have an old thing here. Now do we rebuild stonehenge or leave it as it is? Your statement is a valid one, but there is little agreement on how far you should go with any "fix". The argument can be made that to improve is to loose the very thing that drew people to the game in the first place.

Sorry, but I said "in game" not real life, so looks like you got totally wrong idea of what I meant. I meant the imaginary people (species unknown) who compiled the descriptions in all the ships navigation systems not B&B.

Eventually they wouldn't have much of a choice. In a corporate world it is inadvisable to nerve gas an entire planet of consumers when you can just sell them stuff. Generally this statement is more justification. Galcorp DO control a lot of stuff still. (just not a lot of Gal4) Through (as I see it) economics.

Don't disagree just don't see Humans letting other species get organised enough to have their own worlds. This is assuming genetic concept and limited spawning. If spawning occured a long time ago them that point is irrelevant as the other species would get to big enough before humans and non-human start to interact.

I have great difficulty with the odds of a one (let alone a group) of earth life forms with high intellect spontaneously evolving independently. There are a myriad of way genetics can solve the same problem of survival. It would be lightly arrogant to say that the earth has seen even a shaving of all possible viable forms.

First of all life has reinvented the same forms again and again, it's called "convergent evolution". I wouldn't want to say that Lobsters are exactly like Earth Lobsters, etc., just that is the colloquial name humans gave them as they are lobster-esque. Although Disembodied pointed out that if they don't use the same kind of biochemistry such as DNA then food is unlikely to be tradeable between species. That is a point I have to concede.

I am sorry but the fact that Lobster homeworld like animals are seen through out the universe is proof of the Lobster Goddess and she made all creatures through out the universe........

Phantor Gorth

[PhantorGorth]

I have a kneejerk antipathy towards the idea that you might find an entire planet populated by one ethnic type of humans, or one ethnic type of Felines, for that matter. Or just by fat people.

To be honest I am similarly disliking that trope. But if I may point people at the following quote from the "Rough Guide to the Ooniverse" in its entry for Zaonce it show a similar idea to how we can get round that:

“This planet is a tedious place.”

Man oh man, who would have believed that just six words could shift a whole planetary economy? One word, really. It’s been over a century since the Co-operative published the definitive Register of Worlds, but that little “tedious” has been haunting Zaonce ever since it came out.

It took ninety years standard to compile the Register. Ninety years of official visits, editorial committees, reviews, complaints, boards of enquiry, threats, diplomatic incidents and at least one full-blown military exchange; megalitres of sweat, ichor, blood, tears, and pretty much any other biological fluid you care to mention were poured out in its compilation, and billions of credits spent. So why is it such a paltry collection of bald statistics, fuzzy orbital clips and some of the least informative one-line descriptions you could possibly imagine?

The Register was originally intended to be a comprehensive catalogue of every planet in the Eight Sectors, filled with metadata, hyperlinked to here and back again, constantly updated and built on a semiotic platform so fundamental that it would be immediately comprehensible to any sentient being. And then the compromises began. It was unfair to include olfactory information-cells, because only a subset of the insecta used them; illustrative material got boiled down to conform to the most basic visual spectra; and entire concepts were banned because they lay outside the ideological ranges of certain species. Professional, ethical and political disputes ensued, followed by swingeing budget cuts and drastic downward revisions to the programme. The whole procedure almost fractured the Co-operative. Eventually, after the grand Fourth Editorial had pared everything down to the utter minimum, the Register as we know it today was published and everyone has been bitching about it ever since – but no-one is willing to suggest revising or even updating it.

From the start the Corporation of Zaonce had viewed the whole project as a vast marketing exercise, but every attempt to insert information about their industrial products, or their trade facilities, or their service sector was stymied by the editors. Nothing they did met the editors’ exacting standards of universality. All they achieved, for all their arguing, threatening, lobbying and outright bribery, was to get their entry upgraded from “dull” to “tedious”.

This humorous concept could be broadened to the species listing for the planet by "Harmless Horned Birds", for instance, being just being the largest racial group on the planet or just the race most seen by the Register officials on their visits.

Within each sector, the inhabited planets are only a few light-years apart – that's obvious from the maps. The distribution of the eight sectors themselves is something that's open to interpretation. Personally I don't see them as being adjacent: I think they're much more likely to be hundreds or thousands of light-years apart, little island clusters scattered across the galaxy.

My map show this clearly.

As you say, the idea that the various races were engineered by humans doesn't really work. But the genetic seeding idea does work if you assume that the seeding took place tens of millions of years ago, by ... whoever or whatever. Wink The thousands of various species have evolved from a variety of genetic seeds, originally from Earth. That's why we can all breathe the same sort of air, and eat the same sort of food (which makes the idea of interplanetary trade a practical one: not much use in shipping Laveian Tree Grubs to Tionisla, say, if the Tionislans' DNA spirals another way): we all use the same four base-pairs in our genetic code, and we're all ultimately made from the same stuff.

Can't argue with the basic concept because of the biochemistry argument except in my opinion it would be better if Felines were seeded on one homeworld, Rodents on another and so on. Each discovers witchspace drive and expand into space. Maybe the technology was "left" in each homeworld's system to be discovered when they have advanced enough to find it. Then one species discovers or develops Gal-drive and that links the species together. This would combine both the genetic diaspora concept and regional one together. This also does not rule out there being other species out there that have been seeded in the same way but just are not connect to us by the Gal-drive and species that are completely "alien" having nothing to do with the seeding process; maybe Thargoids.

The reason I am keen on regional concept as that explains, if we keep to the those ideas that try to tie the Elite universe to the FFE one, why the other species disappear, by having most of them returning to their own sectors when the Gal-Drive starts to fail and GalCop falls. The other explanation that is reasonable is genocide. I know human are bad, but that bad? If all the worlds were seeded randomly across Sectors one a very long time ago then they would more likely stay were they are and fight that move to another sector.

Phantor Gorth

[DaddyHoggy]

I too have fallen victim for the "Guide"...

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/User:Daddyhoggy

Hailing originally from Soreisbe in Chart 2, DaddyHoggy reveals that you too would be described as fierce if you spent the first few minutes of any new meeting justifying why you are not in fact bug-eyed, despite what was written (in error and stands uncorrected despite many official and unofficial protests) in the "Guide" installed by default in every ship based navigation system.

DaddyHoggy strongly believes that the original author of the guide simply took umbrage with his Soreisbian hosts when he was cleaned out during a particularly high stake game of Teonanian Hold'em (hosted at Raseac's Palace). The Soreisbian's were accused of cheating, a claim which they strongly refute. "After all," notes DaddyHoggy, "the record clearly states that the human author of the Guide brought his own packs of playing cards with him, fancying himself as a bit of a card-shark."

However, when pressed, DaddyHoggy refuses to be drawn on claims that an improved spectral response of a Soreisbian eye renders the playing card material of choice for most (humanoid dominated) Hoopy Casinos completely transparent. Although this, he concedes, while unproven, may go some way to explain the rather unflattering "bug-eye" label.

Details of DaddyHoggy's early years are somewhat sketchy, although it is known that he lost both parents to a goat attack when he was barely a fledgling. He won't be drawn on precisely how he first made it into space, but does not deny the possibility that he won the ticket onto his first jump-capable passenger liner in a card game. [Note: it would appear that this liner was lost after a freak asteroid strike, but DaddyHoggy refuses to name either the ship or the company involved after agreeing to a non-disclosure out-of-court settlement from the ship's owners]

It would seem that even the name DaddyHoggy is somewhat of a nom de plume, derived, incorrectly, notes DaddyHoggy, from his rather exuberant native greeting of D-dd-aa-aa-dd-dd-ee-ee-hooooooooo-keeeeeeeeeeeee - which roughly translated simply means beautiful plumage (a highly regarded Soreisbian compliment).

It cannot be denied though, that in recent years, DaddyHoggy's love of gambling and eye for the more unusual (he prefers "striking") colour scheme has lead to several Ad-X commissions from many Big-name brands that adorn the highly popular (and aptly named) Constores where it is said DaddyHoggy prefers to "hang his hat" as the card playing (and money making opportunities) are more abundant.

His biggest Commissions to-date, however, are the extremely high profile, soon to be launched, racing teams of Magma Racing, Hatchling Racing and Ayr Thistle where his true exuberance for use-of-colour will not go unnoticed amongst the racing and gambling public.

DaddyHoggy is currently without a ship of his own having sold his 50% stake in a rather run-down (but perfectly serviceable) Cobra MkIII to the ship's pilot a large (ok, fat) avian from Inisza. He took the crushing of his co-pilots seat (and along with it his mealworm in jelly dessert, DaddyHoggy is quick to point out) from a split support beam as a "sign" that it was time to hang up, for the time being, his space-wings.

He says he misses the Lazari but not enough to want her back.

[Disembodied]

@ PhantorGorth. I can't argue with the Rough Guide ... It could indeed be the fact that the descriptions are highly vague and selective. But it's difficult to see how one set of Felines, say, could be described as red, bony and horned, and another be fat, slimy and and black.

As for the collapse of the Galactic Hyperdrive and the subsequent disappearance of the various alien races from the sector near Earth, there are suggestions of genocide in the Frontier manuals. Plus, it doesn't all have to be genocide: faced with a hostile (or at least expansionist) wave of human settlers from the Federation and the Empire, the various non-humans (and indeed human colonials who preferred what might be left of the Co-operative to life under the Federation or the Duval Empire) legged it out of sector 1 to the other, very far-flung, sectors before the wormholes collapsed. Or maybe they collapsed the holes behind them. The galaxy is huge: it could be that, in the Frontier galaxy, the seven remaining sectors of the Co-operative are out there still.

My personal reason for preferring the multi-species idea, though, is that it allows for so much more variety, especially in terms of behaviour. You could have Felines descended from lions, say, who have a much more co-operative attitude, being basically pack animals. And you could have Felines descended from Lynxes, who are much more individualistic and don't take orders from anyone. The biology can be vastly more varied. If all the Frogs are just races of a single Frog species, then they'll all, essentially, be the same. If we have a single Frog species, then they'd all be much more likely to band together. We probably wouldn't get the Co-operative: we'd just have a Frog Federation, and a Lobster Empire, and so on. Or these would at least exist out there somewhere in some politically recognisable form.

Ultimately, though, this is the kind of thing that's best left within the imaginations of the various players. It's hard to see how any overall backstory could be integrated into the game without shutting down avenues for exploration, in OXP form or in fiction or just in the worlds we play in in our heads. Any benefit would, I think, be outweighed be the fact that there will be plenty of people out there who disagree.

Which is not to say that your idea couldn't be incorporated into an OXP of its own: anyone who doesn't agree with it, doesn't have to install it!

[PhantorGorth]

I have now removed the redundant sheets from my Ooniverse spreadsheets and the files are 163Kb for the .ods and 1.0Mb for the Excel version.

Links:

Oolite galaxies.ods

and

Oolite galaxies.xls

Please Note the Excel version loses the System Name labels and you need the Analyst ToolPak add-in loaded for it to work.

Phantor Gorth

[ClymAngus]

Ehh? How? I am saying that Humans (one species) have different races
and then say that Blue Bony Felines and Fierce Yellow Felines therefore can be different races of the same Feline species. How is that not 100% compatible with each other?

The problem we have here is biological unity, humans are genetically comparable. IE they can still interbreed. There may come a time where separate groups of humans on different rocks are unable to. We know that environment drives evolution. Humans have shown a propensity to kill each other over the most trivial of differences. Faith, power and love and those are the more intransigent of commodities. There there are actual commodities, land, clean water, energy. Then you have physical traits, histories of conflict. Etc etc etc. That's just ONE inter breedable species on ONE planet.

I find the probability of a sentient species split in a transgalactic way maintaining a single sense of “species” as exceptionally unlikely, due mainly to local social, economic and eventually biological and genetic forces. Basically the more you separate the easier it is for the separated groups to disassociate.

I am however willing to entertain the idea. It's possible the other races have a mecca that they make a pilgrimage back to. Faith would do it, for the sake of tradition would do it. So yeah, although I don't agree with your method, I will defend your right to the death to say it.

But then stepping back, this really is not the point. Your proposing an outward in hypothesis of colonization. I'm proposing an inward out one. By recognizing two areas (if I can) for cat space space and lizard space I will enable BOTH possible states to exist, to be resolved (or maybe not) at some hither too as yet unmentioned “later date.”

I can non-destructively accommodate. It's going to take a bit of work, but it can be done. I will not fight your corner on this, but it would be immature and irresponsible of me to ignore the possibility, and disregard the considerable effort you've already put in.

Sorry, but I said "in game" not real life, so looks like you got totally wrong idea of what I meant. I meant the imaginary people (species unknown) who compiled the descriptions in all the ships navigation systems not B&B.

Ah! I see I apologize, but still that can cut both ways depending on motive. Once again it's not a silver bullet that shoots down one or the other argument.

Don't disagree just don't see Humans letting other species get organised enough to have their own worlds. This is assuming genetic concept and limited spawning. If spawning occured a long time ago them that point is irrelevant as the other species would get to big enough before humans and non-human start to interact.

I have a some what more cynical view of what humans can and cannot keep a lid on. Personally I see a little neglect going a long way, a little cruelty going a long way too. You can get away with gunship diplomacy only so long (and that's humans against humans). Guerrilla war fare + local knowledge make a surface landing tricky, you could gas or disease the planet but that has it's own logistical, political and economic problems.

First of all life has reinvented the same forms again and again, it's called "convergent evolution". I wouldn't want to say that Lobsters are exactly like Earth Lobsters, etc., just that is the colloquial name humans gave them as they are lobster-esque. Although Disembodied pointed out that if they don't use the same kind of biochemistry such as DNA then food is unlikely to be tradeable between species. That is a point I have to concede.

I am sorry but the fact that Lobster homeworld like animals are seen through out the universe is proof of the Lobster Goddess and she made all creatures through out the universe........

Nice to see your not loosing your sense of humor

on a separate note food for thought. Where are the robots and AI's? Machinary is the most wide spread unnatural form in the universe (we know of) I wonder why machine planets don't exist?

Anyway. I'm agreeing to disagree on this one, at some point maybe someone might have to concede or at the very least compromise, but that's NOT TODAY! I'm going to crack open those spread sheets, take a look and leave the oolite backstory with a hole in it big enough to drive a fleet of trucks through. What say you sir?

OK got it open.

ah I see this is running the actual "whole thing" I wondered why lave was suddenly appearing in gal4. And all the cell maths too, charming.

[Diziet Sma]

on a separate note food for thought. Where are the robots and AI's? Machinary is the most wide spread unnatural form in the universe (we know of) I wonder why machine planets don't exist?

Skaffen-Amtiskaw says they hide themselves, so as not to give the "meat-bags" inferiority complexes...

[PhantorGorth]

I find the probability of a sentient species split in a transgalactic way maintaining a single sense of “species” as exceptionally unlikely, due mainly to local social, economic and eventually biological and genetic forces. Basically the more you separate the easier it is for the separated groups to disassociate.

That is the nature of evolution but the definition of species is an issue throught with problems. The easiest to understand is do they interbreed successfully. This is not whether they can interbreed but would they if they meet and the conditions are right. Lions can breed with tigers but you would still call them different species. The problem is a grey area and it depends for this situation on how long those worlds are seperated and how isolated they are.

I am due to the biochemistry idea coming to accept the genetic idea at the base level. I still like the regions because to me it solves quite few issues but it probably creates a few too. So I am now looking to combine the two.

You are right not force any idea on to the map. My ideas are my ideas and others are free to take or leave.

I have a some what more cynical view of what humans can and cannot keep a lid on.

I like cynical.

on a separate note food for thought. Where are the robots and AI's? Machinary is the most wide spread unnatural form in the universe (we know of) I wonder why machine planets don't exist?

Good question. I think I have seen one of the Rough Guide worlds is a machine planet but I could be wrong.

Anyway. I'm agreeing to disagree on this one, at some point maybe someone might have to concede or at the very least compromise, but that's NOT TODAY! I'm going to crack open those spread sheets, take a look and leave the oolite backstory with a hole in it big enough to drive a fleet of trucks through. What say you sir?

I say good. You can not be forcing anyone's ideas on anyone else. I just wanted to throw my ideas in to the mix.

OK got it open.

ah I see this is running the actual "whole thing" I wondered why lave was suddenly appearing in gal4. And all the cell maths too, charming.

I am thinking I should alter the files to use the proper names for the species, tidy it up a bit and then link it in to the wiki. Good idea? I might even make it easier for people to change the galaxy seed and view other sets of 8 galaxies like in the Galaxy 9 idea.

Phantor Gorth

[ClymAngus]

Nice idea, but beyond my current remit. I've extracted what we need from the necessary spreadsheet for this gritty little problem.

I do like the spreadsheet though it does make things very accessible. Back the information onto an sql database and you'd have a powerful little web app (quick too).

catworlds (14)
16 ONZAENVE anarchy
21 ZAMAES Democracy
41 ISQUEDER Multi-gov
76 GERITIOR Multi-gov
80 SORAZA anarchy
86 BIESIN Multi-gov
105 ESXEVEXE Multi-gov
144 AZAVEAR anarchy
149 TEANCE Democracy
169 LAARRARA Multi-gov
201 ANREBEIS Multi-gov
208 TIRAUSRA anarchy
214 VEORER Multi-gov
233 LEENENBI Multi-gov

reptile worlds (14)
9 TIVEORSO Multi-gov
22 REATQU Multi-gov
38 ZAONBI Multi-gov
48 GETEANAN anarchy
85 ERGESO Democracy
102 TETIED Multi-gov
112 MAINDICE anarchy
137 ABILAMA Multi-gov
150 RILERI Multi-gov
166 RAAR Multi-gov
176 BETEONA anarchy
213 USBEGE Democracy
230 INSOTE Multi-gov
240 ANINATOR anarchy (Ooops!)

Crustacean worlds (20)

OK 14 worlds a piece, if we can get regions out of this fine, if not then we might be able to get trade/pilgrimage routes out of it and name them accordingly. (actually we do need some more routes but we'll see what we've got when I mark up a map) Reality defines form and all that.

[Nemoricus]

I'm currently working on making a map with feline and reptilian worlds marked on it.

In doing so I noticed that Raar is mispelled as Raaar.

Geritior is 73, not 76.

[ClymAngus]

I'm currently working on making a map with feline and reptilian worlds marked on it.

In doing so I noticed that Raar is mispelled as Raaar.

Geritior is 73, not 76.

Nemoricus, your a star!
Seriously thanks for taking this on, I'm getting hammered at work right now.

[Nemoricus]

Thank you.

Map:



Rectangles are reptiles, ellipses are feline. Draw your own conclusions.

[DaddyHoggy]

I'd say for the reptiles #137 is in trouble surrounded by cats only a few jumps or less away and for the cats #169 has no where to run to if the surrounding 2+ jump reptiles make and advance...