Strict Gameplay / HUDS / Players Experiences / Look and Feel

[tupe666]

I'm fairly new to this oolite program but have been aware of its existence for some time, I have only just been able to experience it firsthand with the Linux port/that and a slightly approved graphics card. Without doubt it captures the essence of elite as was without being disappointed(you can never go back ) with a game looking like like the 20 year old game it it.

Having posted on these forums and it is becoming increasing obvious to me that peoples experiences of elite 5/10/15/20 years ago are very different. At the time there was many different platforms Spectrum/Arc/Amiga St/IBM PC/Amstrad/Apple II/MSX and others ,and it was available in 8/16/32bits and with a variety of input devices available keyboard only/mouse + keyboard/joypad only. It also had different versions available to the same platform BBC Cassette/Disk/A/Master, and most I would imagine have not played them all esp since not all where released Nes/Gamboy/Genesis/Amiga. But each version of elite was limited to the platform/machine limitations like (colour/speed/AI/Screen Resolution)/Input Devices. And I haven't used ghastly words such as fashion(pink for guages I love that). The odd thing is very few people actually mention how it Plays.

OOlite has done something pretty tricky and that is maintain the feel of elite for a large number of people, while moving some of the elements into a new platforms Linux/WindowsXP/MacOsX??? improving some elements along the way.(I nearly wet myself when I saw a rock hermit). While keeping most/all of the original elements, without turning it into a different game( see elite II/III )

Thats a big introduction for what I will say next. 90% of what people thought elite was is wrong, misremembered, or applies to his/her personal reflection of an experience of what was/is a fascinating game. I can supply examples but its better to just do a search on the forums for the term original(which could be anything btw). I had to fire up an emulator and read posts just to check I wasn't just talking nonsense(and I often was).

Strict Gameplay is a fallacy of the highest order, at best its a way of crippling a program to an earlier machine, and the people who would want to use like they say they want to, should use an emulator, wireframe graphics/blocky text/limited missions(2), because that is the true experience to you of your elite. Anything else if just disabling features at random. The disk version from the BBC had many different features than those of the cassette, and that alone has been the source of many discussions between me and a fan/friend of the “original” elite esp when I talk about what I liked.

The HUD. I love the HUD its funny how people are so fanatical about even the smallest changes(and rightly so its your main feedback with your ship). Yet when people blurt changes of the original instead of whats best. I get confused. There are many common elements of what makes up the HUD, but every last one of the is different all 20+ of them, with all kinds of changes, most of the changes reflect the the *platform* it is on. The exception strangely enough are the remakes . Oddly enough any changes does not involve the common elements. Which is a statement of how successful the initial design was.

The Interface which nobody had looked at. Looks like an 8-bit elite. I like the interface so why change it. Changes should reflect the interface to the computer we use today. I'm not saying we should slap the Amiga/Atari st/Arc/Elite+/Elite II/Elite III front end on. Most would say they look awful(I'd prefer to say "of there time"). I'm saying it should be updated in the same way they were for there platforms/there time. I find it bizarre that Mac users particularly are so scared of the mouse. I use the CLI most of the time(as an exclusive Linux user), but I do know a GUI tool to fit a job well is better that a command line and more efficient(I know the advantages of a CLI and they simply do not apply here).

I would like to point out strongly that the original premise, and main elements should be left untouched. The HUD should contain all common elements from cabin temp to energy bars. Purchases should contain the same traded items(although I do like the thought of replacement body parts, as was rejected in the first elite as too squeamish). Trading/Ratings/Status should pretty much stay the shame and items added very very carefully. The originals(note the s) were very well thought out because they had to be. Every new item changes game play, I am for improved game play. I am very much in the school of thought of culling added junk!!

My personal view of strict game play is twofold:).It should be completely replaced with.

1) Faster Harder elite I'm thinking elite A and the changes it made 20% faster / profits less, and start with adder possibly others

2) Legacy Elite. If limiting is necessary I'm quite prepare to provide HUD's for any elite and designed from scratch, and if available with default options selected from a file that you can tailor to your elite(:) or include some features you can't live without.

I have this view because with these included oolite can grow into a better elite without the baggage of the 8-bit platforms.

So from a personal viewpoint what I want(not necessary get) from oolite is the Game play(Look and Feel) or the elites of yesterday transposed onto a modern platform 32/64 bit with a keyboard/mouse interface. Its was 90% already there when ship textures were introduced, and anybody who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

[RmB303]

Well said.
If I want to play a twenty odd year old game, I'll run an emulator.
If I'm playing a game without an emulator, I want it use the resources that modern computers have. Unless it's NetHack of course!

[Selezen]

You're determined to pursue this to the bitterest of ends, ain't ya!!

It comes down to a simple thing - Oolite is the best Elite clone out there, cos it captures the spirit and look of the original game, but brings it bang up to date and adds so much without screwing with the basic concept (like Frontier did).

Your precious HUD argument is one that is a moot point, to be honest. If you don't like the HUD, write your own. The scanner and the HUD are something that has survived with very little change since day 1 of Elite, and it's an integral part of the game's history.

Remember that this is Giles' baby, and he has done a fantastic job of preserving the spirit of the original whilst adding logical advancements over the original game, creating one hell of a nice game!

If you want to play Elite, then Oolite is the best choice. If you want a different game, then go buy X-Beyond the Frontier - the HUD is much more advanced.

At the end of the day, Giles has made it so expandable so that everyone can make thier own decisions about custom options to thier heart's content. Just as you are entitled to your own opinion, so is everyone else.

Me, I happen to like the original HUD, colours and abbreviated names as is. Giles did a good job, and it's good enough for me.

Sorry if this sounds a bit snippy - it's just a very odd thing to get heat up about...

[tupe666]

Selezen I'm not talking about a HUD/or a wiget or a whatsisname. The program was developed without me. I have made impact 0 on this project.

Please Please do not take my words the wrong way. I have put some thought, and time into what I have written based on what I have read/wrote/researched, and have admitted my own faults where I have made them.

The only thing my experience of doing the HUD had given me is the desire to do more, based on the original elites. (I was particularly taken with spectrum version), The *opposite* of what I suggest for my HUD so people can enjoy a retro feel/look at whats been improved/find out what they like or just have a HUD they are comfortable with(like an old slipper), and as I suggest seperate the new from the old currently there is no old. Or better yet take good design from the old HUD's to create new ones maybe better ones.

Most of my post actually refers to the strict gameplay modes. Its my personal reflection to this, and I have taked about the interface(interface is not just the HUD which is only a tiny part that supplies only visual feedback during flight).

It actually says how good the program is!! I have played it far too much, and what I've liked so far.

I have spent quite a long time talking about peoples experiences of elite, and how people have opinions about their version of elite. and how these feelings often strong ones influence their thinking, and how misguided it is see your own posts. I am as *guilty* as the next person of this, probably more so.

Please if you are going to make a comment about my HUD do it under that post, or have more personal remarks please message me, Please don't taint this discussion. I spent time thinking about what I wrote, Read it properly, and have the curtsy to delete your post or please leave me alone.

[aegidian]

Hey there. Cool it, both of you.

tupe666 has made some good points I agree with, and suggested some things I don't agree with. Selezen has contributed massively to Oolite in his work on TOGY and elsewhere. Whatever I decide to do, all your opinions and ideas impact on Oolite's design and affect its development — because I read and value your opinions (and plunder your ideas ).

WRT the Hud there are and have been a wide variety of designs for Elite's on-screen display, choosing one of them as the definitive design would (IMO) be a mistake. Oolite's choices in this department were my take on what I felt a classic Elite design should look like and it's been successful in the most part.

Inevitably, it's impossible to please everyone, and equally inevitably people will have strong feelings about some elements of Oolite's design. That's okay too, provided they remember they are just one voice among many. Similarly, I've knocked around the interusewebnet long enough to have grown a thick skin about my own choices — I can take the criticism however it's put.

In short, please express your opinions of Oolite and its design. But please try to avoid criticising each other for having an opinion.

Nuff said?

[Selezen]

Giles, I agree with you entirely...it's not worth getting worked up about, it's just that tupe seems to be getting a bit worked up about the fact that others have different opinions...at least as I read it...

Sorry if I've come across as a bit forward.

I'm all for the right to choose, and Oolite has the best system I've seen for ages as far as customisability goes. The balance the basic, unexpanded version has between new technology and the elements that made Elite what it was is damned good, and all kudos for that!!

Tupe, peace man...

[tupe666]

Absolutely I'm worked up. That is the point of the message. I would choose the term "passionate". What I am passionate about is elite a 20 year old game. The post that drove me to write this was https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=836. I understand what strict gameplay mode *IS* and why people would want it,

Expantions to elites gameplay is not a new thing.

Elite-A is Angus Duggan's amazing extension of BBC Elite, including loads of new ships, new equipment and giving the player the ability to buy new ships.

and you can see the ships here http://mackayj.doosh.net/eliteaships.html

Even the disk version had addtions over the cassette version

Oolite had been improving, and had a powerful feature that encourages innovation/extendability IMO this is a fantastic, and my favorite feature. Hell it inspired me to download wings 3D/ Look at nose art from American bombers.

But remember every single extension is a change to the Myth of the Original Elite. Every innovation moves it away from this, whatever it is to the individual, For some people(the advocates of strict mode elite) think those changes have gone too far already, and even discuss what it should/should not contain.

But then...
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=825 thats my post MY post saying change nothing but the graphics, And I BRAG about my *original* version of elite(Its like I was ten in the schoolyard). I felt as embarrassed as if I had been reading a love poem that I wrote when I was 14, and yet it was only 5 days ago.

Unfortunately that has left me with disagreeing with myself and everybody else. By wanting innovation and at the same time, not wanting innovation, or wanting this innovation, but not this one. In this I am far from alone.

I have tried to nail down what is good innovation, and bad innovation. I decided every change that improves the Game is a good improvement regardless what Myth Elite did or looked like.

So what about strict gameplay mode am I against it. NO. but there is no such thing except in peoples minds, but there is BBC ELITE A. which could be an option that had the extra missions, had the 7+ extra ships, and you start with an adder, use BBC keys and looked at the BBC HUD and nothing else that was added afterwards. Or BBC ELITE cassette where you a cobra mkIII, 100credits and told to go trade/shoot.

It was meant to be a discussion of what oolite is/was/tries to be/potential to be while having great ties to what was one of the finest games 20 years ago on a machine 1/1000th as powerful, and the passion it invokes in many people to this day. I have poorly tried to define this from a personal perspective, and wanted other options to clarify my own, because my options are confused/jaded/out of perspective. Its become a waste please delete this thread.

[Rubinstein]

I think I can follow some of your contradictory feelings and even share one or the other. But since you refer to

The post that drove me to write this was https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=836.

I also feel encouraged for some clarifaction.
First off,

I understand what strict gameplay mode *IS* and why people would want it

I doubt this. You may believe to understand, but you don't. Not in my case at least, and since I was the original
poster of this thread I feel somewhat addressed.

For some people(the advocates of strict mode elite) think those changes have gone too far already.

I'm also not an advocate of strict mode, but here we come a little closer. You can't understand my interest in
strict mode, simply because I haven't yet stated it. And, to be honest, I didn't dare to complain about something
what's currently everyone's fovourite thing. Yes, I'm talking about the OXPs. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way
against these expansions in general. And though I'd call myself a 'still enthusiastic Elite veteran', I'm not
searching for a defuse kind of 'retro-feeling' or the like. That's why I'm also not very much interested in a
discussion about strict=original. I really don't care, sorry.

What I do care of, though, is the balance of a game. And here we come to my concern about the current direction
of unrestricted gameplay. Currently it's way too easy to cheat and spoil the game. You can easily edit your
current ship values. New ships (OXPs) appear with an insane price/performance relation.

Ok, I already hear the voices telling me now "then don't use them, throw them out!". That's what I've done
already, btw. But if the player himself has to take care of game-balance, then in my opinon something is
utterly broken already, it just feels wrong. For a children's toy? Ok. But for an otherwise excellent game: No way!

So one possible solution to this could be to let oolite calculate the price of a ship, based on it's performance
(speed, cargo etc.), hardcoded and in a way that insane values would lead to insane (up to virtually priceless)
prices. All prices in general should be removed from plists and calculated by the main app.

On the other hand, I really like the variety of many new ships and I already miss fighting against the Mussurana.
And so, no. Strict mode isn't a solution for me. Not really. Once you have leeched blood, you can't go back...

[Cmdr. Wombat]

One of the most remarkable attributes of Oolite is that it spawned one of the most friendly and civil communities (this bb) I've ever come across. It pains me to see a series of misunderstandings (and that's all it is) lead to the some of the less than civil posts in this thread. One of the hallmarks of a civilized community is the ability of members to disagree without coming to blows (verbal or otherwise). Please let's keep it that way - after all, Oolite is just a game. (Have I just committed sacrilege? )

Tupe, although I don't necessarily agree with all of your suggestions, they are nonetheless valuable. As Giles has made clear, some of them are well worth consideration and may well become a part of the game. This thread is not worthless and should not be deleted.

[Selezen]

I'm so confused now I don't know what's going on. I only started off by trying to say that everyone likes different things, and everyone's entitled to thier own opinion. I wasn'tr trying to tell Tupe that his opinions or suggestions weren't valid...

Look, sorry if I pissed anyone off. Especially you, Tupe. I'll shut up about it now.

Sorry everyone.

[Mad Dan Eccles]

Don't make me come up there and bang your heads together.








No, I've nothing to contribute, I'm just wetting myself laughing.

[jonnycuba]

It's the murderous heat....

[Rubinstein]

Either the heat or some are just a little too sensitive.
It even was far from being a flame war. And what do we have now?
The main points are all forgotten while everyone starts to feel guilty...

[aegidian]

The main points are all forgotten...

Not so. I've been working on elements suggested here - in particular proper mouse clicking/double clicking in the Oolite GUIs, and making other fixes too.

But anyhoo, yes, this topic is now closed.