RFC: Fancy classics

[ZygoUgo]

I thought it would be nice to have them both as upfront examples of Oxping to encourage people to be interested in that side of it.
I have different reasons to like Simon's and Griff's styles.
The originals I have already played with and the novelty has worn off to an extent, but I am very glad they were there in the first place.
I see both Griff's and Simons styles as trophy's and although I wouldn't want the core ships to go, both these sets could be put forth as gleaming examples of what you can do with a bit of time, effort, and talent.
For Simon's style I can still well imagine animal headed aliens flying them, hence I was a bit chuffed (personally) with my Viper livery because it made me think of Sam the eagle flying it, I like that sense of humour, very well summed up with MrGimlet I feel, but also sleek and original.
Griffs style is gritty and hard, but beautiful with its nooks and crannies, I can imagine that alloy genuinely scraping the dock as I crush in a hurried escape.
Call me selfish, but I want all these things

[JensAyton]

Personally speaking I'd actually be disappointed if the current ship profiles were done away with for the Neo's without any choice except strict mode (which isn't an option).

To be clear, the current ships will only be replaced if/when it is possible to use the old designs as an OXP in both strict and normal mode. New players would get more eye candy by default, and the old appearance could easily be restored. The OXP would either be distributed with Oolite or offered on the download page.

[Captain Tylor]

Me I would like to have Simons beautiful ships as an OXP alongside the original ships not as replacements.

[Pangloss]

Just to give my opinion: I've skinned a few original ships, and I've skinned one of Simon's Cobra III's, and I do like the newer shapes. The original shapes were like that because of a limitation of 1980s computers, not because of some design ethic (although that COULD be written in as an explanation for the original ships. Geometricism was fashionable, but now the fashion has shifted to more curves and more protrusions on ships).

As someone pointed out in another thread, a ship in space doesn't have to conform to any aerodynamic shape because it doesn't have resistance to worry about...



but (just like in a Star Trek:TNG storyline) we could say that certain shapes of ship are needed to successfully travel at FTL speeds without ripping subspace a new asshole. I know: in ST:TNG, it was the nacelle placement. Blah blah blah!

So we could say the old fashion was for simple geometric shapes a few decades ago...



But the aesthetic has now changed.

[JensAyton]

As someone pointed out in another thread, a ship in space doesn't have to conform to any aerodynamic shape because it doesn't have resistance to worry about...



but (just like in a Star Trek:TNG storyline) we could say that certain shapes of ship are needed to successfully travel at FTL speeds without ripping subspace a new asshole. I know: in ST:TNG, it was the nacelle placement. Blah blah blah!

Subspace fields and such treknobabble aside, the main issue would be acceleration stresses. My guess is a sphere, or a prolate spheroid oriented along the main axis of orientation, would be strongest. Any engineers about?

[DaddyHoggy]

As someone pointed out in another thread, a ship in space doesn't have to conform to any aerodynamic shape because it doesn't have resistance to worry about...



but (just like in a Star Trek:TNG storyline) we could say that certain shapes of ship are needed to successfully travel at FTL speeds without ripping subspace a new asshole. I know: in ST:TNG, it was the nacelle placement. Blah blah blah!

Subspace fields and such treknobabble aside, the main issue would be acceleration stresses. My guess is a sphere, or a prolate spheroid oriented along the main axis of orientation, would be strongest. Any engineers about?

Any fan of good old fashioned Space Opera - in my case EE 'Doc' Smith - would know that most of his ships were spheres or occasionally tear-drop in shape (in the words) although Chris Foss who did the covers clearly had his own ideas and the ships were usually depicted as triangle based with lots of protrusions...

[Disembodied]

Any fan of good old fashioned Space Opera - in my case EE 'Doc' Smith - would know that most of his ships were spheres or occasionally tear-drop in shape (in the words) although Chris Foss who did the covers clearly had his own ideas and the ships were usually depicted as triangle based with lots of protrusions...

Although Alastair Reynolds's books (Revelation Space, etc.) have near-lightspeed ships ("lighthuggers") which are extremely streamlined. When you're travelling at almost the speed of light you need streamlining to cut through the interstellar medium, exposing yourself to as little incoming radiation as possible ...

[ovvldc]

There are now two debates floating.

1. Do we want Simon's ships to be the basic set? To what extent does it offer a balance between the idea behind the original, and the possibilities that our current graphics hardware offer that were not remotely there in the 80s? (Neo-Krait pictured above is a case in point)

Of course, the traditional versions should always remain available, somehow.

It is not yet time to make that choice, but that time is coming soon.

2. If we transition to any new set of ship models, how can we structure the transition so that OXP makers use the new models for their re-skinning efforts, and that existing OXPs keep sort-off working without making a jarring mix of styles.

This might require some sort of dependency check for the presence of either the old or the new models.

Best wishes,
Oscar

[JensAyton]

2. If we transition to any new set of ship models, how can we structure the transition so that OXP makers use the new models for their re-skinning efforts, and that existing OXPs keep sort-off working without making a jarring mix of styles.

This might require some sort of dependency check for the presence of either the old or the new models.

A mechanism along those lines is possible, but strikes me as overengineering. OXPers who want to take the time to make two sets of models can simply release two OXPs.

[ovvldc]

Fair enough .

-Oz

[Selezen]

It would be easy enough to make an OXP with the classic styled ships in it. Just take copies of the models, textures and plists that come with the vanilla Oolite install and bundle them all into an OXP.

[Simon B]

What I'm curious about is what happens if this is done to Strict Mode - do you magically get all the old ship designs back?

This is a very good question. At the moment, there is no way for an OXP to change ships in strict modes. If the neo models are adopted, a mechanism to do this will have to be added to allow a “classic Oolite” OXP, but in such a way that it can only apply to replacements for the standard ships.

My feeling as that this is premature ... there are many ways of handling the situation where someone wants to keep to the old ships should any wholesale makeover actually happen.

For eg - one can have strict mode exactly as now - with new ships. It's role has changed is all. Those who wast a "nostalgic elite" game, may have that option as an OXP.

I don't think anyone wants to see the choice of the game vanish. All this stuff is really speculation on something which is a ways off so far.

[Simon B]

There are now two debates floating.

1. Do we want Simon's ships to be the basic set?

Let me just finish this thing first please?
It is encouraging that these ships have sparked a discussion like this - and looking through the archives, most such proposals get shot down.

2. If we transition to any new set of ship models, how can we structure the transition so that OXP makers use the new models for their re-skinning efforts, and that existing OXPs keep sort-off working without making a jarring mix of styles.

I'd leave this entirely up to oxp creators - if I have done my work well here, then the neolite models will be thought of as community assets and reskinners will come and work on them.

There will likely be a split between newer and classic style oxps.
People putting out their own editions will probably want to include a note as to whether it works well in either. Some will, indeed, include version checks and other tricks to make sure they fit in (Random Hits for eg.)

It may be that one will prove dominant and force the other out - however, it is unlikely. This evolutionary-effect is a characteristic of open development. It can be scary. The best practice is usually to let it happen.

[JensAyton]

What I'm curious about is what happens if this is done to Strict Mode - do you magically get all the old ship designs back?

This is a very good question. At the moment, there is no way for an OXP to change ships in strict modes. If the neo models are adopted, a mechanism to do this will have to be added to allow a “classic Oolite” OXP, but in such a way that it can only apply to replacements for the standard ships.

…
For eg - one can have strict mode exactly as now - with new ships. It's role has changed is all. Those who wast a "nostalgic elite" game, may have that option as an OXP.

My point is that, as it stands, you would not be able to do this if your idea of “nostalgic elite” includes strict mode, because OXPs are not loaded in strict mode.

[Kaks]

Hmm, one way to enforce classic elite ships could be to have yet another directory inside Resources - maybe called Strict - and only load the shipdata.plist (& models & pngs) found inside that directory when in strict mode, & everything else when in unrestricted mode... Still, it's probably a bit early to be coding that yet...