RFC: Fancy classics

[LittleBear]

Random Hits doesn't replace any ships, it just puts characters into ships that exist in the Ooniverse, so if R_H asks you to hunt down a Character in an Iguana for example and you accept the mission, the Character will be flying the neo-oolite version. But R_H does not add ships generally to the game, so all other ships you encounter will be standard.

Similarly, if R_H puts a Character in a Cobra Mk III, then with no OXPs installed it will be the standard Cobra Mk III, with neo-oolite installed it'll be the neo-oolite version, with the Griff Cobra installed it would be the Griff Cobra. R_H just uses whatever your set up has as the default ships.

[Simon B]

Not sure that that's a good idea. I see the neolite models as too different and therefore not suitable as replacements…

Do not install neolite.oxp - RH is set to use whichever you have installed.

Should neolite style end up as a default, I'd support including the original ships as an oxp - then, the same sort of footwork will be done in reverse. You won't lose your old ships.

One of my concerns is to try not to be the sole arbiter in this set. I could make the ships so advanced that it would be tricky to customize them - however, one of the design restrictions is that players should be able to mix and match. You should be able to reskin, and you should be able to edit the models - without requiring much skill.

[ovvldc]

I think the main issue isn't about the Neo models. Some people dislike them, but on the whole I have grown to like the designs, and I think most people have.

The issue seems to be with a transition period. It will take a while for skinners to start making variants of the new ships, and so the OXPs that use the old models will be out there for a while.

And then there are the ships made by Selezen and Griff and the whole thing becomes complicated.

Ideally, strict mode would have the old ships in it, because it is supposed to look and play much like old Elite. I think it would be nicest if the Neo ships become standard, because it would be the main thing that drives OXP writers to update the old OXPs and make new one on the basis of the new models.

But that is a decision for Ahruman and the rest of the flag officers on this big ship.

Best wishes,
Oscar

[Ark]

Some people dislike them

I disagree.
The models are not too deferent from the original ones (with some exceptions like the sidewinder) and are far prettier. The real problem is that they do not have a consistency with the rest of the models. For example is you install neoolite it is more than obvious that the thargoid warship simply does not fit with the rest of the trargoid fleet (battlecruser, carrier ect) that exists in other oxps. Same with other oxps that use modified from the main game ships. It would take a lot of time for other oxps to adapt to the new oolite concept.

But before that the most important thing is for us (the community) to decide if we can accept those modified designs as a replacement for the basic set as an oxp or directly to the main game. In this decision consensus is an utopist concept. If we expect a 100% agreement then we must accept that the ships in the main game will be the same as now forever There will always be some members that will not accept them. The goal must be the maximum possible majority of us to accept them.

Personally for the time being I would recommend the creation of 2 deferent oxps. One that will totally replace all the basic set and one with witch the new designs will coexist with the old ones. For the noolite companions like the old ships things as easier since the user can decide if he will chose the noolite concept of oldships or the original ones. So the creation of a second download link in the wiki is the only requirement.

[Wolfwood]

But before that the most important thing is for us (the community) to decide if we can accept those modified designs as a replacement for the basic set as an oxp or directly to the main game. In this decision consensus is an utopist concept. If we expect a 100% agreement then we must accept that the ships in the main game will be the same as now forever There will always be some members that will not accept them. The goal must be the maximum possible majority of us to accept them.

I see two options:

1) community (majority) vote

2) active developer vote - only active developers get to vote, meaning those guys working on the actual code and making this happen.

(whichever opinion wins, the other ship set will still be offered as an OXP)

[Selezen]

To add my tuppence worth, I'm happy to stand down the Dream Team works in deference to the much superior work of others like Simon or Griff (or others!).

I think that Simon's works do bring a more up-to-date feel to the ship models whilst keeping more or less to the spirit of the originals. Griff's designs, whilst awe-inspiring, are complete departures from the original ships and would be lovely in an OXP. Similarly, my models are simplistic and don't utilise the full capabilities of the updated gfx engine and would be best in a "flavour" OXP.

I would happily stand up and be counted as one behind a move to integrate Simon's designs into the standard Oolite build whilst retaining the original models as an installable OXP for those who wanted the classic feel. Alternately, as stated, it would be a nice option to have the original ships in the Strict mode if that can be implemented...

[Lestradae]

I see two options:

1) community (majority) vote

2) active developer vote - only active developers get to vote, meaning those guys working on the actual code and making this happen.

I suggest a third option: To do both.

If a majority of community people on the boards and a majority of the devs is for it, then the ships are getting replaced.

That way, the players/OXP'ers have been asked and the people who have invested the most into this game (the devs), too.

Just my 0.2 Cr democracy-wise.

And, btw, I for one would be for integrating Simon's ships as new standard into the core game, too.

[Captain Hesperus]

To add my tuppence worth, I'm happy to stand down the Dream Team works in deference to the much superior work of others like Simon or Griff (or others!).

No way! Selzen, your and ramon's takes on the basic sets are excellent! The way I've visualised the recent upsurge in 'modded' Snake-class ships is because the original companies have sold production rights to other shipyards to produce their own versions of the classics (a nice way to get a profit for very little outlay).

As to replacing the basic set with Simon's, I'd have to vote no. It was the revamped imagery of the original Elite ships, which I actually saw here:

Stolen from http://battlebarge.hughesd.co.uk/ utterly without permission!!!!
that drew me back to the game that stole most of my adolescent years. Changing the basic ship set to Simon's set may lose Oolite that link that draws old Elite players here. I'm not saying it will, but as I say, seeing the game on Selezen's webcomic </plug> brought me back.

Captain Hesperus

[Ark]

Personally for the time being I would recommend the creation of 2 deferent oxps. One that will totally replace all the basic set and one with witch the new designs will coexist with the old ones.

I didn't say anything about voting. Right now what matters is to help simon in order to finish his oxp. This unofficial pole is too premature and it will harm the whole project. It was not my intention to do that.

[Wolfwood]

I didn't say anything about voting.

True, you didn't, but the paragraph I quoted from you was a very strong implication of voting... It basically discussed the process of voting without mentioning the word.

[Ark]

I didn't say anything about voting.

True, you didn't, but the paragraph I quoted from you was a very strong implication of voting... It basically discussed the process of voting without mentioning the word.

Oh dear!!!

[JensAyton]

What I'm curious about is what happens if this is done to Strict Mode - do you magically get all the old ship designs back?

This is a very good question. At the moment, there is no way for an OXP to change ships in strict modes. If the neo models are adopted, a mechanism to do this will have to be added to allow a “classic Oolite” OXP, but in such a way that it can only apply to replacements for the standard ships.

[ZygoUgo]

I take it to implement both sets into the games body would be a bit of a nightmare? (As in you get Simon's models as standard, and strict mode switches to the originals, both built in game, although that removes some freedom of choice).
Perhaps the other alternative is to have Simon's OXP added to the download so it comes as standard as an example in the Addons folder.
Maybe eventually with Griffs additions there could be an option in game for; A)Original designs
B)Stylised versions (Simons)
C)Realistic versions (Griffs)
..but that would take away the freedom to mix and match,it would be one or the other, and that I think is the most important point.
Maybe the best implementation is to have the installer add both as OXP's to the desktop, and a read me file explaining where to put which one you choose (or not) and how OXP's work in general, especially how to mix and match, if that's what you want.

[ovvldc]

With all due respect to Oolite2 art director, most of Griff's ships have been quite radical. His Cobra Mk3 is the only one I remember as being a (brilliant) faithful recreation.

I'd happily have that Cobra in an OXP side by side with Simon's ships, but his Krait and Boa replacements are pretty far away from the original. Still brilliant, but maybe better used in an OXP.

Or maybe I missed something?

Best wishes,
Oscar

[Thargoid]

Personally I'd say that applies to the Neo ships too. Whilst I don't question at all their quality (they're lovely), if they replaced the standard ships/shapes then for me it would no longer be an Elite-inspired game.

The current ones (especially Griff's Cobra) are (for me) what the original Elite ships would have been had the technology (and Griff's genius and skill) been available in the 80's.

Personally speaking I'd actually be disappointed if the current ship profiles were done away with for the Neo's without any choice except strict mode (which isn't an option). I don't see what's wrong with just having them as either an option or something that people can manually replace their shipdata.plist's with.