RFC: Fancy classics

[0235]

showing my 100% noobnes, when i download it, its a "*.tar.gz"
is it supposed to be, and what does it do?

[Sarin]

it is supposed to be this way. It is linux package, but WinRAR can open it.

[ovvldc]

Or you can get StuffIt Expander 13, which sucks in many ways, but at least it handles .7z and tar.gz without questions...

Edit: Only the expander is freeware, so ignore their advertisements..

Best wishes,
Oscar

[Simon B]

Compare dimensions in the table below - they are WxHxL.

Redux[1] Ships - Neolite Ships

Code: Select all

Boa:]
Redux:    65.0 x 60.0 x 115.0 vol: 130430
Neolite:  53.1 x 34.4 x 124.4 vol:  88276

Boa Class Cruiser:
Redux:    65.0 x 60.0 x 115.0 vol: 110565
Neolite:  43.8 x 61.5 x 154.2 vol: 127591

Some of these stats were a big surprise! I always figured the cruiser as a bigger ship than the regular boa! It's dimentions are identical, and it is more pointy - so it is smaller - yeah - that tracks.

Hi Simon
Not being picky but there's a minor error in the volume calcs
Both the Boa & BCC Redux calcs have the same dimensions Width 65m x Height 60m x Length 115m but your volume calcs show a difference of 20,000 cubic metres??

hope that helps

Chris

To state the obvious: the boa and bcc are not box shaped. They enclose different volumes despite having the same draft, beam, and length.

While both ships are cone-ish, the BCC is almost a full cone - making it's volume closer to 1/3rd the box it occupies. The Boa is more of a tear-drop, making it fatter for more of it's length... hence a bigger volume.

The full post is here ... I was hoping for comment about the relative sizes of the Boa and BCC ... as well as comment on the resized cobra 3.

Can the discussion on the CBE please go to a different thread - not to get too snooty about this but the CBE stays as far as this set is concerned. I do not intend to make fundamental changes to the gameplay.

BTW: I'm ba-ack ;)

[Simon B]

I've been testing the oxp ships on my wee lappy
(intel chipset - celeron mobile + i965 gfx running under Ubuntu 8.10)

I had to set shader effects to minimum as the poor gpu could not handle the planet shaders. Even so there is a significant pause when exiting witchspace or when a ship explodes.

Other effects mentioned in previous posts (thanks folks) have been fixed, to be uploaded tonight. I'll talk about them next post.

Note: the oxp was not tested at the time of upload - I figured I'd not make you all wait a week to see the whole thing. All I did was add the models and attempt to get the filenames to match.

The wavefront files are included so that you could investigate/adjust the models.

I did not adjust the view positions or exhaust plumes - so you will get some odd effects. As the ships are pretty close to the standard in scale, it shouldn't be too jarring - the gecko and sidewinder have single plumes, for eg, while the model has two vents.

I was sort of hoping that someone else would do that and post me a fix while I was incommunicado. no matter. Thanks to those who did post fixes for things they knew how to correct though - that's the spirit of FOSS development.

I have been distributing oxps archived with tar and gzip. You'll see the file extension .tar.gz ...

The TAR (Tape ARchiver) is a Unix program which dates back to the dawn of network computing. GZ (GNU Zip) is a Free Software version of the ZIP archiver - used by WinZIP, PKZIP, and utilities of such ilk. The *.tar.gz files (called "tarballs") are thus doubly archived - since tar and gzip use different algorithms, there is often a tighter compression. No archiver is especially effective for OXPs because PNG files, the bulk of the bandwidth, are already efficiently compressed. However, I still get a bandwidth saving over just plain old zip.

Neither of these are "Linux" programs or archive formats. Both are available for BSD, OSX, Windows and other OSs. That is part of what "Free Software" means.

Since free software archives are a major way of distributing free software, certain proprietary software manufacturers have variously refused to package them with their software.

WinZIP, as it appears on XP, is reported to be able to cope with tarballs. 7Zip is a popular Free Software archive manager which will handle pretty much anything. Recommended if you must use Windows.

[Sarin]

Welcome back. I have gone through cobra IIIs textures and forund this: neocobra3-alt.dat uses nonexisting textures (cm3-tdr_auv.png). If I am correct, the texture file should be cm3-alt_auv.png. Also if I am not mistaken, model for pirate cobby III (neocobra3_prt.dat) uses alternate trader texture, while there is pirate texture (I think, cm3-prt_auv.png) that is not used by any model. These all are easily fixable within seconds.

And just a suggestion, FDL looks kinda rusty. I understand this if it is second hand ship, but don't you think that at least some should have paintjob worthy of luxury yacht?

[Simon B]

Thanks to those who posted fixes. I've been working on it too.
Let's see... off the top of my head:

0. Read the readme.1st file - the oxp should be considered Alpha-stage. Expect lots of broken stuff.

1. Classic Ship errors - it seems I needed to have the classic ship models and skins in the oxp. Delete all the classic ships entries from the shipdata and shipyard plists. This will also remove a number of invisible and insubstantial ships (which can still shoot you.)

2. Missing skins - for most, the skin is misnamed in the dat file - usually to skinname2.png instead of skinname.png. This is properly corrected in the dat file rather than rennaming the png.

However - the cobra3 pirate and alternate have the wrong skins entirely. This is easy to see if you compare the dat files with the textures available.

I had lots of fun trying to get skins to render - mostly my usual typo-blindness.

3. Missing Models:

The shuttle's wings are missing due to a typo in the shipdata.plist. It's obvious when you know it's there :oops:

The sidewinder had the wrong model entirely on my edition. It should be neosidewinder.dat with a subentity: sidewinder-engines. The sidewinder-engines entry should have model neosidewinder-engines.dat

The thargoid model does not show up when called - the classic shows instead. I forgot to include an entry for it. Copy and paste the thargoid entry and change the model to neothargoid1.dat

4. BCC has too many faces.
Note that the four engines on the back are primarily responsible - the rear end uses 520 triangles by itself.

Since you see agreat deal of the rear end of ships I've tried to make them interesting enough to withstand prolonged study. On reflection - this model should have exhaust vents more in-line with the other bigger ships. I'll be revisiting this later.

Meantime - the fix is to cut the model in half.

You have to choose the cut-line carefully to avoid an annoying flash at some angles. I found that cutting around the cargo bay bulge did the trick.

You need to save the two resulting models seperately, then alter the plist entry to include a subentity - like the boa does.

Do people want a BCC skiff treated like the boa skiff?

5. Ships are frangible - I'm using a november 2008 build of 1.73 and the ships insist on being frangible - no idea why. They do not honor the frangible = no (or 0 or false) entry either.

6. Smoothed ships are not smoothed. Same problem as for frangible. smooth = yes (etc) is not honored.

7. The game hangs sometimes when a ship explodes - this is due to a missing escape capsule model. Just delete it's entry from the shipdata.plist. The default capsule is actually quite good.

8. Boa skiff is not spawned for boa escape capsule ... I did not add the escape-pod entry to the boa pist entry. The skiff is still not scripted. If the entry is added, it should behave like a regular escape capsule... but not be scoopable.

I found it profitable to shoot up the cobra3s I met and scoop the escape capsule that often results. This gave me a cargo worth 250-500 creds per ton - much better than capturing pirates. Boas are similarly engaged - using the skiff makes the enterprise trickier.

[Simon B]

Welcome back. I have gone through cobra IIIs textures and forund this: neocobra3-alt.dat uses nonexisting textures (cm3-tdr_auv.png). If I am correct, the texture file should be cm3-alt_auv.png. Also if I am not mistaken, model for pirate cobby III (neocobra3_prt.dat) uses alternate trader texture, while there is pirate texture (I think, cm3-prt_auv.png) that is not used by any model. These all are easily fixable within seconds.

Yep - a text editor and a willingness to look around are all it takes.

And just a suggestion, FDL looks kinda rusty. I understand this if it is second hand ship, but don't you think that at least some should have paintjob worthy of luxury yacht?

Interesting - the texture is actually an imitation of an adobe or stone wall with rose plaster/stucco on it. It comes from a builder site (as a low-res sample of paintwork offered) and is called "egypt wall". I chose it for it's "luxury look".

The FDL is a much skinned ship and I have laid out the map to make it easy for players to create their own.

Note - there are two FDL model available - a smooth one and a not-so-smooth one. AFAICT: they are each about the same in looks. The non-smooth one will be easier to reskin.

Come up with a better one ... if you need some layers off the current texture, pm me your email and I'll send. I plan a yellow one with black stripes and jmaybe a katana with a bouquet as well ;)

The twin-engine FDL in the oxp is not the final model - rather it is the high-end edition. It's a little too "derriere de fer". The standard should have a single engine and the regular stats. The actual dat file won't change, neither will the texture mapping, so it's safe to retexture what you've got.

I'm playing with adding some expansions for this set - I'd do a cruiser-classes edition of popular ships as well as a "gunslingers" involving twin-gun editions of the fighters. I've also been sketching designs for oldships.

But first - I'll get some standard shader effects going for the shader junkies to get an idea off.

[Sarin]

I dunno, I'm running without shaders and it really looks rusty

I'm not good at graphics, so I'll just lay out some ideas. First, putting the standard texture into black and white, and add some black decals, I might be able to do that one. As it is supposed to be "rich kid's toy" maybe a series of Fast and Furious like textures could be good too....

[ZygoUgo]

Hi Simon, hope you managed to relax after all that activity!
They're looking really good in game, noticed a couple of bugs not yet mentioned but I think the tweaks you've already mentioned should fix them?
The Dredger Shuttle is picking up your neo shuttle texture, must be the same name? ..And the Woma Sidewinder attempting to wear your sidewinder's engines, oddly enough, is that just a case of renaming again?
Anyhows well done, did you post up the fixed version in the end?

[JensAyton]

I had to set shader effects to minimum as the poor gpu could not handle the planet shaders.

Hmm? Nothing can handle the planet shaders, because there aren’t any.

The TAR (Tape ARchiver) is a Unix program which dates back to the dawn of network computing. GZ (GNU Zip) is a Free Software version of the ZIP archiver - used by WinZIP, PKZIP, and utilities of such ilk. The *.tar.gz files (called "tarballs") are thus doubly archived - since tar and gzip use different algorithms, there is often a tighter compression.

Er, no.

Tar is only an archiver; it joins multiple files into a single file, without compressing. Gzip is only a compressor; it doesn’t archive. That’s why the two are typically chained together. Using two compression schemes in a row would be a complete waste of time, unless the first one was really bad.

It’s also inaccurate to describe gzip as a version of zip; both use the deflate algorithm, but different file formats, and zip files are archives while gzip files are not.

[Simon B]

Hmmm... must have been half asleep...

I had to set shader effects to minimum as the poor gpu could not handle the planet shaders.

Hmm? Nothing can handle the planet shaders, because there aren’t any.

OK - so not shaders. The lappy still hates planets at full detail. What am I seeing?

Tar is only an archiver; it joins multiple files into a single file, without compressing. Gzip is only a compressor; it doesn’t archive. That’s why the two are typically chained together. Using two compression schemes in a row would be a complete waste of time, unless the first one was really bad.

I stand corrected.

It’s also inaccurate to describe gzip as a version of zip; both use the deflate algorithm, but different file formats, and zip files are archives while gzip files are not.

And again! sheesh ... still in vacation mode.

Now I'm trying to figure out where I got these ideas from.

Comparison of archivers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... _archivers

The fileroller which comes with Gnome will output zip files - I have noticed a small improvement in compression using tar.gzip instead. Which is interesting given the above info - since the compression algorithm is the same, any saving should be in the way the underlying filesystem is organized.

tar also stores fs-specific stuff like permissions - does zip? (This is not an advantage for oxps - but great for distributing *nix software.)

Checking for this particular archive...
zip 10.9MiB
tar.gz 10.9MiB

... so I'm not getting advantage here. In fact, I'm not getting any particular advantage in compression for any of the other combinations either so could just use zip. (But then - look at what we've all been learning!)

(note: oxp file size is smaller than before because I removed a lot of pictures. If you want the pics, backup the "gallery" directory.)

I also recall, from DOS days, compressing with arj and pkzip together, getting tighter compression than either by themselves. Something you care about more when your connection is 9k6 and your only non-volatile storage is a couple of floppy drives.

These days I drop a file in my HDD and it rattles.


Well - the corrected OXP is now available... this one shouldn't break anything unless it uses a similar filename.

Added
- new texture for the smooth FDL.
- shaders for the thargoid.

I'll run a script to systematize all the filenames soon-ish, and make them guaranteed unique in the process. So we are still in alpha.

[ovvldc]

4. BCC has too many faces.
Note that the four engines on the back are primarily responsible - the rear end uses 520 triangles by itself.

Since you see a great deal of the rear end of ships I've tried to make them interesting enough to withstand prolonged study. On reflection - this model should have exhaust vents more in-line with the other bigger ships. I'll be revisiting this later.

True, but 520 for a rear end is quite a lot. And I tend not to be so close as to study a ship in square meters. Not for long, at least ..

As for the .tar.gz thing, Ahruman is correct, but the differences are unlikely to be interesting for a great many people. 7zip for Windows and Linux, and StuffIt Expander for Mac are the programs that can deal with (nearly) any format..

Best wishes,
Oscar

[Simon B]

520 for a rear end is quite a lot. And I tend not to be so close as to study a ship in square meters. Not for long, at least :)..

If I have round exhausts, that makes lots of triangles - the other ship comparable is the shuttle - also four exhausts.

The gecko and sidewinder have lots of triangles in the exhausts too - as does the krait.

I too wondered at the poly count at the boa2 rear - there is a tendancy for wings to add a few zero-size triangles. I've been spotting them by moving nodes and checking the edges, and it seems solid enough.

As for the .tar.gz thing, Ahruman is correct, but the differences are unlikely to be interesting for a great many people. 7zip for Windows and Linux, and StuffIt Expander for Mac are the programs that can deal with (nearly) any format..

Yep - most people are indifferent to the tools they use - until something goes wrong.

I expect that most players just want a good game, and don't really care how they get it. I prefer to shake up such complacency - an educated player is better for everybody. Remember - some of us have additional motives... and I am really, honestly, trying not to preach.

Still - I agree that the BCC model is too complicated for what it does (the std Boa has more faces and an excuse). It is also out of character against the other big ships - none of which have rounded exhausts.

I've reworked the model and it should be appearing in the olite-concepts archive soonish... probably by tomorrow.

See next post:

[Simon B]

Boa Class Cruiser - Second Attempt


The previous model was, admittedly, rushed. This is a more considered attempt.

I've kept the overall shape, which comes from what I learned with the FDL - spot the similarity in the nose.

I've kept the skin - but lightened the blacklines (they are also more blueish). You'll need to zoom in to see this, but the skin has faint blue and green overlapping squares in it - this comes out more in the game, especially if the diffuse map is also the specular map. This color has been used on all the white ships - but, here, I have let it block the underlying texture to create a cleaner, superyacht, effect.

The red-brown parchmenty areas are supposed to be heat-exchangers ... on this scale it is silly to try to make one of my metallic grills. Not sure the darker texture in the original is better...

Nobody commented on the possibility of adding a skiff - but it's too tempting so I did it anyway. I've also rescaled it to be more in line with the boa and made it sleeker. If there is a consensus that the ships need to be bigger - closer to the volume of the classic models, then both can be scaled - about 20% should do it.

The BCC is a bit smaller than the Boa - but looks much bigger due to the false perspective in the shape. This matches the effect from the classics.

The skiff is quite small, in keeping with the overall sporty design. So I figure, zero cargo but faster and more manoeverable. The pic shows an eva featuring both skiffs.

Planning a "frontier ships" oxp which should give alternate (low-profile) skins to these ships (and others) as well as turrets. (Also cruiser varients for python and anaconda - yes I know they already exist... so I'll want to work with the oxp designers for that. If I cannot, I'll just call them blockade runners. Can you imagine a fast anaconda? Of course you can!)

Just a note on gameplay - I tried out the ramming abilities of this craft - it can happily plow under any fighter. You don't get the kill for it, but you also don't change status and the other fighters stay ignoring you.

Perhaps this needs to change? Have no idea how it can be done.