A step towards solving the f*&%§d-up distances conundrum

[Killer Wolf]

well this could branch off into a whole new project to keep people busy over the new year : Oolite The "Realistic" Version. Start just w/ the bog-standard game using greater distances and sizes. It would be like a blank sheet, starting w/ Elite as it first was. if it takes off, then people could adapt their OXPs over time, it'd keep things ticking over and continuing interest in the game(s).

[Pangloss]

Somehow, the whole idea of a 'realistic' version of Oolite / Elite just makes me thing "I have a BAAAAD feeling about this."

I can understand why a 'galaxy' only has the number of stars it has for the game. That can be covered by Drake's Equation. Part of that equation is, in layman's terms, "how many stars have planets, and how many of those planets are at the Goldilocks Distance (so water is in a liquid form, but the solar radiation isn't making the formation of civilizations and technology an impossible task)?". Our own solar system surrounds a G-type star (G2, to be exact). The Spectral Classes of stars are, from largest to smallest (on the Main Sequence): O B A F G K M.

O, B, A and F stars would be too bright (an F5 is 3 times brighter than our sun, an A5 is 20 times brighter, a B5 is 600 times brighter, and an O5 is 6 million times brighter). Class K and M stars are smaller and much more common (14% of stars catalogued are K, 73% are M), but their power output is lousy for our needs. For an example: Wolf 359. It's the 3rd closest star system to the Solar System, but it's so faint it wasn't discovered until 1918. It's an M6, and the galaxy is littered with these weedy stars. Not only do we need good stars, we need a good planet orbiting it that has land and water, with a good atmosphere we can breathe. That's why there are only a couple of hundred good systems in each galaxy.

Click here to see how small our Sun is to some other stars.

I remember an interview with David Braben or Ian Bell from many moons ago, and a typical star system in Elite was explained. I can't find a mention of the interview online, but I remember that the scales were not realistic. The star in any system was not comparable to the Earth-Sun ratio (if the Sun were a hollow ball, you could fit about one million Earths inside of it). And the distances in real astronomy are ...well, astronomical.

Click here to see a comparison of scale for Sun - Planet distances. But do note: if the Sun was the size of a basketball (to scale), the Earth would be the size of a pin head.

Trust me: it's hard enough to see a space station when it's dark. Imagine trying to find your way back from a sun to the planet, even with navigational aid.

I say: it's a game. Keep it as it is for the majority of us.

[wackyman465]

I don't know - realistic scales might be fun. Enhanced nav computers, faster ships, long range combat...

[CptnEcho]

The game was written when computing power was a precious commodity. Think of the quirks of distance and scale as homages to the original roots of the game.

As things are now, the game is very playable.

If you want "real distances", I suggest getting in your car and driving 500+ miles per day for several days. Then maybe you'll understand that "realism" isn't the same as "fun".

[wackyman465]

How true.

[Pangloss]

The game was written when computing power was a precious commodity. Think of the quirks of distance and scale as homages to the original roots of the game.

As things are now, the game is very playable.

If you want "real distances", I suggest getting in your car and driving 500+ miles per day for several days. Then maybe you'll understand that "realism" isn't the same as "fun".

I did that! Western Australia in 1998. Fremantle to Bunbury to Albury to Esperance to Kalgoorlie and back to Perth. If it's not 500 miles a day, it's freaking close. And I had a blast!

But if I had to drive from London to Stevenage and back ten times a day, I'd be pissed off.

[JameSpal]

I played with Farsun OXP for a while. At first I liked the more realistic look of the solar system, but then trying to do cargo missions by fuel scooping, it was just too long to go from beacon to Sun to collect fuel. I got bored.

I imagine that's about how it would be if distances and sizes were more "realistic".

Realistic does not equal fun.

If you wanted to be as realistic as possible, you'd also have change the way the ships handle - Newtonian physics and all that - and then it wouldn't be Oolite/Elite - it would be something else. Maybe as fun in some ways, but not true to the roots.

I'm satisfied with the distances the way they are. From what I've seen, Elite/Oolite doesn't even necessarily take place in this Universe - it clearly takes place in a different Ooniverse. Maybe in that place - planets are smaller and closer to the sun???

For me, the Ooniverse is just a place to go to get away from real life. I'm happy with it the way it is.

[Commander McLane]

If you want "real distances", I suggest getting in your car and driving 500+ miles per day for several days.

Perhaps not the very best suggestion for wackyman. He is going to turn 13 in a couple of days, which doesn't seem to be the legal age for driving cars in many parts of the world.

*****

I'm satisfied with the distances the way they are. From what I've seen, Elite/Oolite doesn't even necessarily take place in this Universe - it clearly takes place in a different Ooniverse. Maybe in that place - planets are smaller and closer to the sun???

It's more like a parallel universe. After all,if you see Frontier as a part of Elite (which you of course don't need to), Earth is not too far away from Lave...

[wackyman465]

Actually, where I live, all the kids my age own Ferraris and we race them in our spare time.....

No, though, I can not drive 500 miles a day, though.

[Ebi]

If you wanted to be as realistic as possible, you'd also have change the way the ships handle - Newtonian physics and all that - and then it wouldn't be Oolite/Elite - it would be something else. Maybe as fun in some ways, but not true to the roots.

I don't want Newtonian physics! I want Einsteinian physics:) Hey. you don't need to wait while travelling because time is slowed down!

[wackyman465]

Newtonian physics, realistic distances = not oolite, but Infinity: TQFE

[aceshigh]

The distances in Oolite are horrible. The planet is 50km across, the distance from planet to witchpoint is 300km, etc.

Aegidian once tried out an up-to-scale model with every distance in the game (except ships & stations, obviously) by enlarging everything by a factor of 100, including the ship speeds, and the result proved boring and unplayable.

But, what about a still believeable compromise, with (say) 5 times the scales and speed and the scanner oriented at 100km max instead of 20kms?

I'd assume something around the 3-20 times bigger/faster region might noticably more look like a beliveable scale, while still being playable and ships & stations more than dots.

Discussion, bad idea, seconded?



L

The BEST WAY to implement realistic distances, REALLY FUN gameplay and light newtonian physics (which are necessary to achieve huge speeds) is found on the game INDEPENDENCE WAR: THE EDGE OF CHAOS.

Which is probably the best space game ever, with the HUGE drawback that it wasnt sandbox and you couldnt really trade (but you could fly anyway)


video showing IWAR-EoC gameplay. Notice the target distance indicator... how fast the ship sometimes is flying... it also has a in system hyperdrive similar to Elite... (in the beginning, he selects a planet on the Star System map... the planet is 2 billion km away. Also, its very cool that when it approaches the destination, the speed falls on geometric proportion... so you are zipping past planets and moons at lightspeed (all at real size, real distances) then they start going slower and slower until the planets dont move at all but the stations and smaller objects still zip past you are super speeds (showing the difference in size)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM8KPaADjRM



ps: during the lightspeed travel, you can notice the video creator CUT a few seconds of video... the distance changes SUDDENLY from 2 billion km to 500km...


another video showing interplanetary travel and also FUN newtonian gameplay combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMk6kJG51Vk

Newtonian physics, realistic distances = not oolite, but Infinity: TQFE

agree. And also, as you can see above, IWAR2.


and no, realistic distances and planetary sizes do NOT match with Oolite unless we implement gameplay changes to make it look more like IWAR2 (i think the only real change would have to be the star system map... to be able to select different waypoints/stations and witchdrive to them)