Pirate Flotilla OXP ... formerly escort oxp

[matt634]

Each docking port could be plundered only once, and only if there are no cops/military/bounty hunters in range (hard to do to a main station, and suicidal with a SecCom).

I think this addition would be key. While having your own pirate flotilla would be cool, it wouldn't be practical if you're just raiding shipping. I do a fair amount of that already and I don't need any help nor do I want to share my profits. But raiding stations on the other hand...

[Cmdr. Maegil]

I was thinking only of being a leader, and am going to develop on that before dwelling on being a gangmember...

Prerequisites:
OXPs: Anarchies, Pirate Coves
Elite rank: Competent
Legal status: Fugitive
Docking at least once on an 'establishment of ill repute': a Pirate Cove, Hacker Outpost or a Salvage Gang, and why not, Rock Hermits too... What I said on the earlier post about the coves, but thinking better on it, I'd say any 'fencer'.

About 'Classical' Pirates:
- They used to describe themselves as a 'free company of gentlemen of fortune', or something to the effect, and would associate themselves under an elected 'Primus Inter Pares' Captain who'd only command as long as he abided by the rules and earned their respect (the loot being an important respect-garner).
- They'd usually join until a certain amount per share was achieved so that nobody would end with less than the defined amount.
- After the expenses, there was the officers' share and the men's share, that were subdivided by the number of persons according to function, plus injury shares, etc., so a common seamen would get one full crew share, but a carpenter or a master's mate would get more - 1,25 or 1,5 - , and a mate'd get something like 2 crew shares, but a wounded could get higher disability compensations; the same kind of distribution went to the officers.


Some of this is directly usable, but a bit too complicated.
What I had in mind is a watered-down version:

Once the prerequisites are met, the OXP starts a pirate reputation set to the player's own ship resale value (or percentage, see below), then modify it with the amounts of sales on 'fencers'.
<WHAT?!>
I mean, Kills could count, but I think it better to use only the total loot as a measure of success to garner respect among pirates (You heard? Capt'n Matt 634's fleet arrived with over FIFTY THOUSAND in loot and bullion!!! That's one serious pirate, mate!).
On one of these shady establishments, a pirate would approach and ask to join the infamous player, showing his ship, telling how much he wants as a minimum share per sortie (based on his ship's value) and giving the choice to accept him into your band or refuse him.


All right, and what does the $$$reputation$$$ do?
It would allow the player to attract more, or better pirates. Even as solo pirate, as long as the player remains criminal, the count would add up with each sale to fencers (regardless of where it was gotten even if it was legitimately bought - which fencer would ask questions? What matters to the underworld is what they hear about you selling.)

Each pirate taken into the gang would cost a fraction (1/10? 1/3? 1/1?) of its ship's price on the reputation - so to get the good ships, the leader has to be economic about accepting new members, and keep the old ones alive and happy.
Members killed or quitting angry with low shares should amage the reputation, but that's another formula altogether...

*erm?* how to dismiss excessive ships, and should that have a cost or a benefit on the reputation?



Shares: We simply work with ships.
From one stash fund, either fighters get one share and haulers get two for having bigger crews, or maybe they could get only one too for being less exposed to combat. Everybody gets paid their parts each time they dock at any 'fencer', and if the trip was too long they go away and lower the reputation index as per above.

The big problem here I think is how to create and manage this stash fund between so many ships, knowing what each is carrying to drop all together at the 'fencer'.
This is especially true if you think about plundering docking ports: if there's more stuff available than the ships' holds can take, how to decide who takes what, and what to leave back to maximize the profit.

In any case, distributing the cargo among the haulers and scoopless fighters before putting any on the others seems like a good idea.

As a side thought: selling limits don't take fleets into account, and there could be problems getting everything off at once after sweeping five systems with a couple of Boas, hitting two convenience stores, a miner depot and an astro factory on the way...

[Dr. Nil]

Sounds like a classic or two in the making.

[pagroove]

Good ideas!

[Disembodied]

By the by... did you always kill off your crew before dividing up the plunder, I know I do and it makes me feel so dastardly

Ohhh yes... "Come on men! I know we're bursting with loot but let's attack Panama! I'll stay way back here and guard the treasure while you stand in the open and take on the cavalry..."

I see Maegil's point about money and reputation. Actually, even if you don't want to give that much weight to money, my original formula should have been more along the lines of

((number of kills) plus (Money/1000) plus (Legal status*10)) / 1000

instead of (Money/10,000). Maybe it should be (number of kills/10) as well? And to include Maegil's ship resale value, maybe end up with

((number of kills/10) + (Money/1000) + (Legal status*10) + (resale/100)) / 1000

I think something like this could still be used as the starting reputation, for the first time a player tries to sign up any pirate buddies. It would be better, I think, if reputation started off small, so that people could make a career out of it (ratehr than just turn up as a rich dilettante, hire on a big fleet and go off a-roving...). Your Pirate Reputation could then build, or diminish, from that point based on your successes or failures leading a pirate fleet.

There would need to be a balancing factor, though. As a player's reputation rose, it could trigger progressively aggressive bounty hunters and even police convoys sent out after them. Maybe then the reputation could diminish over time, if nothing is done to reinforce it, so players could lie low for a while and allow the heat to cool off before starting again.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

...I just remembered something that might throw the whole idea out the airlock...

How to handle the saving on main stations - one must take its flotilla along, and risk losing them in a nonsensical way every time we want to save?

[Disembodied]

Combine this with Commander McLane's Anarchies OXP. Use Renegade stations as save points. They're the only ones you can think about approaching. It would add a bit of awkwardness but hey, nobody said a pirate's life should be easy! (I'm assuming here that it's possible to save the game in a Renegade station... I could be wrong!)

[Cmdr. Maegil]

By the by... did you always kill off your crew before dividing up the plunder, I know I do and it makes me feel so dastardly

Ohhh yes... "Come on men! I know we're bursting with loot but let's attack Panama! I'll stay way back here and guard the treasure while you stand in the open and take on the cavalry..."

Didn't we all?...

I see Maegil's point about money and reputation. Actually, even if you don't want to give that much weight to money,
((number of kills/10) + (Money/1000) + (Legal status*10) + (resale/100)) / 1000
I think something like this could still be used as the starting reputation, for the first time a player tries to sign up any pirate buddies.

The reason I was proposing a financial, invisible reputation was to allow the player to 'buy' new ships - to somehow have to 'pay' for them, even if they aren't really 'his'.

It would be better, I think, if reputation started off small, so that people could make a career out of it (ratehr than just turn up as a rich dilettante, hire on a big fleet and go off a-roving...). Your Pirate Reputation could then build, or diminish, from that point based on your successes or failures leading a pirate fleet.

Fully agree, undersign and even go further saying that losing ships should be a big no-no on the reputation ("You saw how much Capn' Dread unloaded?""Aye, and also that from each ten that sailed with him, not two came back... I ain't sailin' with that cur myself, no siree!").
Not that after having to painstakingly earn the fleet, the player would want to throw it away on a whim...

There would need to be a balancing factor, though. As a player's reputation rose, it could trigger progressively aggressive bounty hunters and even police convoys sent out after them. Maybe then the reputation could diminish over time, if nothing is done to reinforce it, so players could lie low for a while and allow the heat to cool off before starting again.

The reputation with the police should follow something more of how many counts of infractions were committed by the gang. Each member commiting an infraction is individually tagged, right? Add all the group's legal status, and the higher it goes over a certain limit, say 768 for three fugitives, the bigger the posses sent after the band.
(this means that there can be more ships, but they must keep a low profile)

If a wanted pirate from the group leaves or is destroyed, its 'wanted' points are removed from the reputation with the cops - the group became less dangerous.
Also, it should drop over time, but since 'Anarchies' is required, getting out of 'Fugitive' isn't easy, and once everybody in the gang became fugitive, nearly the only way to reduce the 'wanted' level further would be disbanding some of them.

[matt634]

A few musings:

The big problem here I think is how to create and manage this stash fund between so many ships . . . As a side thought: selling limits don't take fleets into account, and there could be problems getting everything off at once after sweeping five systems with a couple of Boas, hitting two convenience stores, a miner depot and an astro factory on the way

I think a good solution - but admittedly imperfect - would do two things. First, cargo could be treated as a finders keepers commodity between the pirates. This is imperfect but makes some sense for a few reasons. It's going to be nearly impossible to divide up cargo that was scooped by other ships, the pay off from the division of scooped cargo is going to very very low (so who cares), the real loot can be found and divided by raiding stations (this leads into the second thing).

Second, when raiding a station we could use a script to calculate the total number of credits (based on the stations government, economy and tech level) then award shares based on the size of the pirate fleet. Really though we'd only be awarding credits to the player minus what would go to the crew. I don't think we can make the commodities market accessible for free (for the taking) but we could award a representative number of gold, platinum, an gem stones. Just using these commodities not only makes pirate sense, but it also keeps us from having to worry about the players available cargo space.

Using these two "solutions" reputation would be dependent on the number of ships taken in the spacelanes (we'll just have to assume everyone in the group is happy as long as ships are taken regardless of how the loot is split), the number of credits earned from raiding stations, and the number of witchspace jumps made. Pirate losses should also be included. Edit - And legal status of course. Dropping below fugitive should be a major hit to reputation.

I think a system like this would make sense and actually be workable with a script. The mechanics of station raiding would need to be explored, however. Right now, if capture means destroying all the police, I can "capture" any main station in the galaxy by myself with little trouble. Would we increase stations defenses based on government, economy, techlevel? Or, should it also be worked into the script - after you dock the script calculates how may pirates are in your group and decides whether its enough to capture this particular station. That would work but it wouldn't be half as much fun as shooting the whole place up.

[matt634]

And, let me say I love all the ideas coming! I especially like having an ever increasing threat from bounty hunters, police, and eventually the navy should you become a large enough threat. It strikes an excellent balance and sounds unbelievable fun!! I don't think Anarchies needs to be inlcuded for saving but should definitely be compatible. If you want to save you do so after you raid station or raid a station in order to save.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

Is it possible to make the player's cargo space a variable defined by the sum of the fleet's, and any cargo scooped by other ships 'appear' on the player's virtual communal bay?
If one of the ships is destroyed, a percentage of the cargo equivalent to the destroyed ship's participation could be lost. This way, losing a Python would have a much bigger impact on the common economy than losing a Gecko, and everybody could get fairer shares.

Second, when raiding a station we could use a script to calculate the total number of credits (based on the stations government, economy and tech level) then award shares based on the size of the pirate fleet. Really though we'd only be awarding credits to the player minus what would go to the crew. I don't think we can make the commodities market accessible for free (for the taking) but we could award a representative number of gold, platinum, an gem stones. Just using these commodities not only makes pirate sense, but it also keeps us from having to worry about the players available cargo space.

Cargo space is very important, we can't just disregard it!
How about turning all 'plunderable' stations on a system into clones with modified shipyard and market prices set to 0, could it work?

Would we increase stations defenses based on government, economy, techlevel? Or, should it also be worked into the script - after you dock the script calculates how may pirates are in your group and decides whether its enough to capture this particular station. That would work but it wouldn't be half as much fun as shooting the whole place up.

The game itself already polices more on some systems than others, but they could be pumped up a bit; the docking part could maybe be defined by the number of ships versus the system's wealth, population and tech level, and the amount of enforcers active outside, then added a randomizer.

That'd say if the raid was totally successful (full victory, abduct, rape and plunder not only the stockmarket, but also a bonus from the population's untraceable plasticredits yo-ho-ho!), if it was a complete failure (a bunch of heavily-armed militias showed up on the landing dock and kicked your butts back into the ships) or if it was a partial success (you managed to reach one of the warehouses and gained access to x% of the stockmarket total before being pushed back)

Still, only being able to save on mainstations... how about deploying a beacon, and the fleet assuming it as the new 'leader'. The player is then free to 'scout ahead'. Without the fleet, main stations become unplunderable, so the player can land 'normally', but not buy and sell; on return, just scoop the beacon and off you go?

[Disembodied]

Station raiding shouldn't be too easy, otherwise it would happen all the time.... I think you might have to script in a major police launch and/or station plasma turrets, as well as ensuring that the player is leading a significant number of followers to overcome defenders inside the station (which will include armed traders as well as a garrison force). Ideally it should be a rare event. I also think that "complete failure" should include the arrest/death of the player and "Press Space Commander"... Station plundering should be something that most pirates aspire to but few achieve. In that case the rewards for a successful assault could be made decently large.

I like Maegil's beacon idea, which could offer a chance to save the game. Although deploying it should probably empty out the player's cargo hold, so there would be no chance of the player scooting off with the loot and leaving his colleagues dangling.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

Raiding stations should be the career crowning, after the player has amassed some two bulk carriers and at least half a dozen capable fighters.
How about some pre-requirements for success on the docking phase, independently of what happened outside?
Convenience stores, miner outposts, etc.: with 1 ship, hard; with 2 ships, medium, and with 3, easy.
Gulags, factories: Less than 2, impossible; with 2 hard, 4 medium, 6 easy.
Banks, Hoopys: 4 hard, 6 medium, 8 easy, and at least one must be a transport
Main stations: 6 hard, 8 medium, 10 easy, and at least two must be transports.
SecComs: your gang declares you mad and mutinies.



BTW, Realistic shipyards also'd help levelling the reputation expenditures according to the other ships' qualities.

[matt634]

Cargo space is very important, we can't just disregard it!

Is it possible to make the player's cargo space a variable defined by the sum of the fleet's, and any cargo scooped by other ships 'appear' on the player's virtual communal bay?

Unfortunately, we can't even work with the player's cargo beyond awarding cargo and removing "all" cargo. We've got nothing when comes to working with other ships scooped cargos. I understand the desire, but even if we could somehow calculate the aggregate scooped cargos, the complexity of forcing sale, calculating profits, and then distributing based on membership would be extremely complex and most likely impossible. I think we may have to settle for finders keepers on cargo and assume that while we get our share everyone else is getting their share as well - imperfect I know.

How about turning all 'plunderable' stations on a system into clones with modified shipyard and market prices set to 0, could it work?

It would theoretically work, but again I think it would be impossible to write a script that replaced every station in the system with a clone. The main station may be possible, but then we've got exploitable main stations and not so appetizing substations. I think awarding credits, gold, platinum, and gem stones may be the best "workable" way to go.

how about deploying a beacon, and the fleet assuming it as the new 'leader'. The player is then free to 'scout ahead'. Without the fleet, main stations become unplunderable, so the player can land 'normally', but not buy and sell; on return, just scoop the beacon and off you go?

I see the need to save without raiding - like pirate safe havens in the Caribbean. How about making Anarchy systems safe havens like Port Royal and Nassau? You can't raid Anarchy stations but you can save on them Maybe these system stations would be the recruiting spots as well. It makes sense and would be better than trying to find the ever changing location of pirate coves (which would attack you when you tried to dock).

So, player installs the OXP. If player is NOT a fugitive then nothing in the game changes. Once becoming a fugitive the OXP takes off. Docking at an Anarchy station presents offers from pirates wanting to join your band (based on reputation which will be hashed out). Before docking at any other system, the player will have to take on or sneak past the local police/military force. Docking presents a mission screen detailing the raid (script will compute number of raiders vs government, tech level, economy to determine the outcome and payoff in credits and valuable commodities). Keep raiding and your reputation increases with more hardy pirates looking to join up allowing you to plunder richer systems. But, go to long without taking in enough plunder and pirates start to desert. There will of course additionally scripted pirate hunters to hound your progress.

I thought of another complication in the space lane raiding. A fleet of ships will actually make pirating MORE difficult. A good pirate player shoots up the trader just enough to get them to start dumping cargo in a nice straight line. Computer pirate cronies will not be so adept.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

Cargo space is very important, we can't just disregard it!

Is it possible to make the player's cargo space a variable defined by the sum of the fleet's, and any cargo scooped by other ships 'appear' on the player's virtual communal bay?

Unfortunately, we can't even work with the player's cargo beyond awarding cargo and removing "all" cargo. We've got nothing when comes to working with other ships scooped cargos.

When the NPC get a cargo scooped message, that could trigger on the player an award cargo=whatever the NPC collected and remove all cargo from the NPC.

This could work if the player's cargo bay could expand when hiring new, or diminish when a ship was lost, and you guys still didn't spoke about that.

@ core coding team: any chance for more cargo handlers soon?

I understand the desire, but even if we could somehow calculate the aggregate scooped cargos, the complexity of forcing sale, calculating profits, and then distributing based on membership would be extremely complex and most likely impossible.

As long as the player isn't in fleet mode, he'd be acting for himself.
If using the beacon meant saving the communal bay and removing all cargo, it'd be difficult to merge any differentiated cargo into the bay...

I think we may have to settle for finders keepers on cargo and assume that while we get our share everyone else is getting their share as well - imperfect I know.

Actually too painful to swallow...even if my ideas aren't workable, there must be a better way to do it!...

As for me, the distribution would also depend on the communal cargo hold concept, but the logarithm could and should be simply "shares=number of ships+1", in which the leader gets a second share for responsibility.

I thought of another complication in the space lane raiding. A fleet of ships will actually make pirating MORE difficult. A good pirate player shoots up the trader just enough to get them to start dumping cargo in a nice straight line. Computer pirate cronies will not be so adept.

OTOH, therewill be more people to clean up quickly...

Damn, I'm loving this brainstorming!!!