Anarchies.oxp (v 0.1)

[Roberto]

@ Commander M (your comments yesterday)

Yes, I was forgetting that comms-message interaction isn't possible atm. Would be a great improvement. Likewise saving outside of the main stations.

The impossibility of "safe havens" - I take your point. Think I used the phrase "predominantly friendly", meaning that you wouldn't always be able to dock without incident.

Think my concern boils down to "balance". There needs to be sufficient incentive for players to (potentially) overlook the downsides to piracy. At the moment the only thing that makes overt piracy viable is the ability to dock while a fugitive, which I would almost view as an exploit. It's a pretty weak "plus". Having people remain fugitives for longer periods (which could be further extended due to encounters with Vipers) strengthens the "minuses" even more.

[Arexack_Heretic]

I'm almost finished scripting.
I have extensively edited the earlier posts, one page before this one.
Please check it out some and tell me what you think.

In your reward-script,
You do not penalise killing innocents.
why is that?
surely you did not intend to encourage piracy?


IDEAS: more bounty hunting incentive.

Future dev?:
script badass 'most wanted' top 10 list.
mission screen?
at special BH outpost only? check assasins.oxp.
with rumours of where to find the bastards.
Could the passenger script be used?
Check into pilotAIs for character values etc.
compare player galactic reputation with the bounties offered for Wanted, put player amongst them.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

The salvage rights!

The common pirate's bounties tend to be quite small. Of course, the Renegades OXP comes up with superpirates and large bounties, but it still is SERIOUSLY risky to actively hunt down that scourge.
But...

In another post regarding salvage, I suggested that the police should always check the FDR to see what happened. This would prevent pirates from reclaiming salvages, but I don't see why the honest bounty hunter couldn't be rewarded by their civic service...

[Arexack_Heretic]

Greetings,

Commander McLane has asked me to step down my agressive suggestion making.

I have virtually taken over and that wasn't what I intended at all:
I just don't have the resources right now to finish anything OXP.

so, please considder my previous code-postings as a complex, over detailed suggestion of a single idea.
The suggestion is turned down, fair enough.
McLane is right : having 255 entries for bookkeepping alone IS ugly. (Although I must say: computers were made for that stuff.)

So instead of hijacking this OXP, I'll step back and retire to suggestion making again.

My apologies to McLane for the trouble.

[TGHC]

I'll step back and retire to suggestion making again.

Noooo

We need your scripting abilities, and your enthusiasm, perhaps you just got a bit over eagre to help, no big problem.

I have a an idea that could be started in a separate thread if it's a goer.
Is it posible to build up a series of standard scripts that can be linked together, a bit like modular furniture, so that duffers like me can put together a simple OXP.

[Commander McLane]

Greetings,

Commander McLane has asked me to step down my agressive suggestion making.

I have virtually taken over and that wasn't what I intended at all:
I just don't have the resources right now to finish anything OXP.

so, please considder my previous code-postings as a complex, over detailed suggestion of a single idea.
The suggestion is turned down, fair enough.
McLane is right : having 255 entries for bookkeepping alone IS ugly. (Although I must say: computers were made for that stuff.)

So instead of hijacking this OXP, I'll step back and retire to suggestion making again.

My apologies to McLane for the trouble.

Thank you for this very honourable step!

And my apologies to you if somewhere in the process I have hurt you. You still are one of the main contributors to this OXP and your suggestions, hints and clues are welcome again and again. It is just that this all has grown way above my head, and also above what I feel to be good to do in an OXP. When Oolite has undergone the implementation of things like loops, data-storage arrays instead of single variables, division and multiplication as scriptable methods and some more stuff like that it will be a lot more feasable IMO.

For now let's continue to think about what we can do here and now, staying within reasonable amounts of scripting.

And I have no bad feelings left.

[Commander McLane]

Is it posible to build up a series of standard scripts that can be linked together, a bit like modular furniture, so that duffers like me can put together a simple OXP.

Sort of, I would say. There are ready-made solutions for many tasks out there, which could serve as "standard scripts".

But I don't think they could just be linked together. They would at least have to be "interlinked", so to speak. So each of them would have to be adjusted to it's specific task in a new OXP. Only one example: You cannot take a variable-name out of a module and use it as it is. You would have to name your variables consistently throughout your whole script, and one variable could be set and influenced by a lot of different modules. So basic programming skills--and just knowing what you're doing--would still be required.

[Commander McLane]

Think my concern boils down to "balance". There needs to be sufficient incentive for players to (potentially) overlook the downsides to piracy. At the moment the only thing that makes overt piracy viable is the ability to dock while a fugitive, which I would almost view as an exploit. It's a pretty weak "plus". Having people remain fugitives for longer periods (which could be further extended due to encounters with Vipers) strengthens the "minuses" even more.

I see your point. Unfortunately we can't influence the behaviour of the main stations with OXPs. (Or at least only in a very limited way.) And I have to admit that in my personal gameplay I resort to covert piracy, not overt (see my signature , I wouldn'd do that next to a police viper; with the escorts I don't bother, they also are lonely ). So perhaps the player of this OXP will be the more risk-loving type ("living on the edge"), who wants more action with the police?

And it's because of not wanting to top up the minuses even more that the player will get legal rewards for killing baddies, but no maluses for killing goddies (except the already existing malus if the cops see you doing it). Even if this is not completely consistent.

So what incentives for overt piracy could we script? Why not some kind of... well, not of safe haven, but of let's say a "Pirates Guild". Scripted stations/asteroids in some Anarchy-systems, where the player gets payed a MUCH better price for his goods, if he is a pirate (=has a reasonably bad legal status), BUT gets robbed of his goods AND his money and kicked out again if he is (almost) clean (that two or three legal points for parking violations don't make anybody an outlaw). (I'm not sure if we could even kill him when docking clean, by setting his ship's energy to 0; I think that cannot be set in a script.) Something like topped-up Pirate Coves. And you still couldn't save your game there. And you still would have to fight your way to these stations/asteroids. EDIT/ADD: And you still would have to dock manually, because the engine still wouldn't allow for the use of docking computers as long as you are fugitive. (Our ability to change stations' behaviour IS limited, as I said above.)

EDIT/UPDATE: I tried it out with one of the Hacker Outposts (note: if this kind of "sort-of-fugitive-friendly"-stations will get implemented it will be a station of its own; I just tried it this way because the Hacker Outposts are already there). It works: If you're docking while fugitive everything behaves "normally", if your docking while clean you're ripped off your goods and money and sent back. Only problem is that after the immediate launch still the F5-screen is displayed. So you move through space again without probably noticing. I can change that by giving you a mission screen that tells you what just happened to you, waits for you to press RETURN and then launches you. Done that before. I just have to get a little more into how I can tinker with the trading prices, then this kind of station basically is ready-to-use.

But still the question to the community is: What do you think? Would that be an incentive? Or just a silly idea...? So shall I follow this path or not? I am awaiting the community's feedback and comments.

[Arexack_Heretic]

I have a an idea that could be started in a separate thread if it's a goer.
Is it posible to build up a series of standard scripts that can be linked together, a bit like modular furniture, so that duffers like me can put together a simple OXP.

I actually thought about this same thing this morning on the bus...what is the word... serendipidy?

a thread to collect (to order) simple scripts that perform certain tasks or effects.
I'll make a start later, busy now.

edit: don't worry: even burnout won't keep me quiet. I'm Dutch you know.

[Roberto]

@ Commander M - That's basically what I was advocating: separate stations where you can land and sell your cargo while a fugitive (and which don't require quite as much suspension of disbelief!). I'm surprised you want to make them uniformly friendly towards fugies, though, given what you've said before. If possible, I'd introduce a small possibility of being "hassled" before you dock (I guess if you make it, you'll have earned their respect and no one will want to f*** with you!). The prices you get should fluctuate too, and I'd argue they should actually be (on average) somewhat less than you'd get at a normal station, because you're in a fairly vulnerable position, and other "middle men" will have to make a profit selling the goods on. Also, "fallen off the back of a lorry"-type goods wouldn't normally be cheaper than the same goods sold legitimately.

The saving thing is unfortunate - until that's sorted, this career path really will be a risky one!

As for the "GalCop offering you a way back by killing selected bad people" option - I think it could work, provided you've got the "alternative stations" as the main option for survival when you're a fugitive. Think the GalCop thing should be a moderately rare secondary option (they can't be doing that with *every* pirate!). Also, if you choose the GalCop option, I reckon your legal status should be "suspended" (the screen could still say "fugitive", but you shouldn't be attacked by Vipers while you're working for them), and rather than being paid a lot, the main benefit should be a "reduced sentence", i.e. you get restored to clean status quicker than usual. Obviously, if you commit further transgressions, the deal will be off (and you might be targeted by *another* pirate bounty-hunting for GalCop). Makes more sense I reckon.

*EDIT* Thinking about it, it might be best to kind of absorb the Pirates Cove OXP within this one. So we'd uninstall Pirate Coves, replace it with your new OXP and end up with pirate bases that appear randomly in asteroid belts (as they do now) and consistently in anarchies (though *slightly* off the beaten track - will have to use markers or something to make them findable), and which are hostile towards good clean folk and (usually) friendly towards fugitives. The "off the beaten track" thing is important for the sake of newbies and general game balance.

[Commander McLane]

@ Roberto: The way I'm going now is this (please tell me especially when it stretches credibility too much):

In some of the most dangerous Anarchy systems (in fact in the script: randomly in low TL Anarchies) GalCop has installed "Sentinel Stations" to monitor what's going on there and to be able to deploy forces quickly when needed. I am using Aegidian's Military Station for that. The stations are located close to the witchpoint and will respond to distress-calls and to offences committed in their vicinity by launching some vipers to help out.)

However some of these stations (again using a random number) have been successfully thrown over and captured by the pirates, making them into "Renegade Stations". These Renegade Stations will attack all CLEAN or MINOR_OFFENDER (although I'm not sure where the border between MINOR_OFFENDER and OFFENDER lies) ships in their scanner range. OFFENDER and FUGITIVE ships will be left unharmed. And as the station has a couple of very effective ball-turrets it is virtually impossible to land in one piece if you are a target and the station is in ATTACK-mode. (speaking to himself: But why then do I need the player to be robbed if he's clean? He wouldn't make it to the dock anyway? Have to think more on that.) The player can land when OFFENDER, but will be ripped off. The player can land and trade if FUGITIVE.

Now we can continue to discuss the trading conditions. Should he get slightly less then elsewhere, because of the reasons you mentioned? Or should it be more then elsewhere, because there won't be a lot of sellers in this kind of market (and for the incentive, of course)? I'm still not finished with the decision.

And as it is a seperate station I think I wouldn't go for the integration with piratecoves.oxp.

Saving of course wouldn't be possible. And as I mentioned earlier you have to dock manually. The use of docking computers isn't possible for fugitives regardless of the type of station, because that bit seems to be hard-coded. That's unfortunate, because it makes no sense at all that the Rengade Station should refuse do give docking instructions to renegades, but I don't see a way around it.

FAR REACHING IDEA: LittleBear has made me aware of the possibility to replace a system's main station with a custom one, which I wasn't aware of. I guess you could save normally in a replaced main station. But would we want to do that: replace main stations in some Anarchy systems? Permanently? How could that be explained game-wise? I'd like to get some opinions on that one.

Legal status reduction for killing criminals: I haven't thought about it as a seperate "way" of gameplay, just as a bonus as it has become far more difficult to get clean once you are a fugitive. I don't think a "suspension" of your status could be scripted, because at the end of the day it's only one counter that is queried by the engine to display your status on the F5-screen and to calculate the behaviour of stations, of other ships and of the police towards you. And that counter can only either be ZERO or a higher number, not both at the same time.

But I can think of making it more randomly: You don't get the reduction for every kill, but only with a 50%-chance. And I think I can do it so you get either the bounty or the legal status-reduction, not both for the same kill. Would that lead somewhere in your opinion?

And of course I welcome very much the opinions of everybody else.

[LittleBear]

Could change the description of selected Anarchy Systems to add a comment along the lines of "lawlessness has reached such unprecedent levels that GalCop now has no presence in the {H%} System, the Main Station now being controlled by {name%} of the [gang%] gang."

In descriptions just define a longish list of names and gangs (Triad, Mafia, Yakosa - maybe some non-human types as well!).

Change the station to the role of the badguy station. Could have several versions.

[Arexack_Heretic]

FAR REACHING IDEA: LittleBear has made me aware of the possibility to replace a system's main station with a custom one, which I wasn't aware of. I guess you could save normally in a replaced main station. But would we want to do that: replace main stations in some Anarchy systems? Permanently? How could that be explained game-wise? I'd like to get some opinions on that one.

replaced main stations need not be totally new stations.

They could be run-down ones.
or have random aglomerations of likeship-subentities hanging around (or inside the docking port!)
or have graffity smeared all over it, etc.

defenceships would need to be changed, ofcourse, to pirates.
and the stationAI changed to ignore (more or less) legalratings.
An attack should still be met with maximum force.

--

edit:
I don't think replacing the station with a lawless one would do.
It contradicts the background story, that all galcoop members have at least one station, maintained by galcop (semi) independently from the local government.
having a 50-50 chance would be acceptable however, as the player just missed the legal transponder and followed the pirated one.

[Commander McLane]

Of course I didn't think of totally new stations (the same station would just be taken over by pirates). So the changes I intended were indeed replacing the defense ships and tweaking with the AI. And still the friendly "S" would appear in the HUD when you approach the station, making you think you are safe ... until you see the pirates coming after you .

For the same reason I wouldn't alter the texture. Just add a sentence to the planetinfo: "One of the planet's stations has fallen into the hands of outlaws. GalCop are working on a re-capture plan.", so that after jumping into the system the player looking for a safe haven could just look to his F7-screen. But the next time he jumps into that system everything could be back to normal. And the background-story would remain intact.

And I think even 50-50 would be too big a chance.

Or I could script a timeline. Sometimes a main station is overrun by pirates, but then some time later re-conquered by GalCop.

So the station in let's say Raale (Galaxy 1) is a pirate station from day 2084006 to day 2084030, then again a usual GalCop station.

The station in Xexeti (Galaxy 1) is a pirate station from day 2084071 to day 2084110.

And so on, all over the eight galaxies.

If the player happens to be there at these precise dates there should be a lot of fighting going on. There could be a Galactic News Bulletin on the capturing and re-capturing of stations so the player knows what's going on.

------

Hmmmmm. Perhaps that one is a bit too overcomplicated? Planning and scripting an unchangeable timeline? Perhaps that would go too much in the direction of Frontier (as far as I understand what Frontier is, never having played it)? And the randomized solution would be more like Elite?

More comments and feedback, please.

[Killer Wolf]

Some mish ideas here. If I can add a little thought or two…

In some of the most dangerous Anarchy systems (in fact in the script: randomly in low TL Anarchies) GalCop has installed "Sentinel Stations" to monitor what's going on there and to be able to deploy forces quickly when needed. I am using Aegidian's Military Station for that. The stations are located close to the witchpoint and will respond to distress-calls and to offences committed in their vicinity by launching some vipers to help out.)

Oh man…that could be the start of an awesome mission-OXP for the "recapture" plan : the main coriolis has been taken over by <someone> (Thargoids?!) and a new military station has been deployed.
Mission 1 : arrive in system, destroy a 20 ship witchpoint blockade.
Mission 2 : the new station has arrived, is under immediate attack before it and the ballturrets come fully online - defend it (can be destroyed as the recharge rate is very low, being on standby status, not online)
Mission 3 : the station is moving into position (very slowly, it was originally "nudged" by tugs). Seeing the threat, the compromised station is now in do-or-die state – mission is to destory the last of the defense ships, then nuke (? Escort in a Behemoth?) the old station. At which point, missions over, this system now has a standard military station and the Anarchy level is restored to something less dangerous.
Prob – saving. For mission 1 you'd have to jump in, destroy, jump out.

speaking to himself: But why then do I need the player to be robbed if he's clean? He wouldn't make it to the dock anyway?

Yeah he would – cos the pirates WOULDN'T attack him – lure him in then rob him. Far easier than destroying the ship and scooping anything left

Saving of course wouldn't be possible

hmm, would need to be. This is something that needs to be addressed I think.

replaced main stations need not be totally new stations.
They could be run-down ones.
or have random aglomerations of likeship-subentities hanging around (or inside the docking port!)
or have graffity smeared all over it, etc.

Awesome idea. For pirate bases NOT taken over, it makes sense that perhaps they've got an old decomissioned Coriolis. Perhaps these were sold off at government auction, perhaps the pirates nicked it when it was being transported to the salvage yard.
For the other case, yeah – a gang takes it over and paints their colours on it, marking their territory – cool

The use of docking computers isn't possible for fugitives regardless of the type of station, because that bit seems to be hard-coded.

aside from that, as mentioned elsewhere if they using decomission old stations, we can assume the docking computers were romoved (very expensive equipment, wouldn't be sold off).