MMORPG

[Cmdr. Maegil]

You mean fidicurially cost-free. It costs a great deal, no matter how you pay for it.

What does "small" mean, in terms of a galatic economy? do you mean quantatively or qualatively? player crafting would be small quantatively, but would be a qualative change.

Would someone ban this mis-spelling plutocrat's parrot?

Please?

[Callas]

In the context of a server that does a bit more than just the economy - the scripting and AI functions would be useful for the server so that:

- new missions can be scripted for server side use, and thus be available to all online players (and one player playing a particular mission could have knock on effects on other missions, which would be seen by all).

That's a very good reason.

- in the context of a complete online game, NPCs could be generated and run by the AI code.

I may be wrong, but I think the NPCs in the economy server (which are essentially individual planetry economies) cannot be coded up using the AI functions in Oolite for NPC ships.

- ad infinitum.

That's not a reason at all.

Retaining or extending the existing missions would mean current contributors (who are not necessarily programmers) can continue to contribute missions to the multi player version, too. Just look at Second Life and how popular scripting is there.

Scripts are for one of two things; a one off mission, or a permanent change to the game.

The server is the same for all people, so permanent changes are part of the server. You wouldn't script them, excepting that it would make the behaviour easier to change, since you'd change the script rather than recompile the server, which isn't a good enough reason by itself.

That leaves one off missions. I could imagine things like one-off economic scenarios, where a particular planet needs a particular resource and pays a high price, etc. Scripting here would be useful in permitting the easy addition of novel, one-off content, to enhance the game.

However, since the server affects everyone, new scripts for the server will need careful vetting before being unleashed.

As such I think server-side scripting will never be the thriving entity client-side scripting currently is.

[JensAyton]

Would someone ban this mis-spelling plutocrat's parrot?

No. You’re free to ignore him to your heart’s content.

[Callas]

Would someone ban this mis-spelling plutocrat's parrot?

No. You’re free to ignore him to your heart’s content.

Unfortunately, people love to hate.

(Hate's too strong a word here, but "love to dislike" doesn't read well).

[winston]

I may be wrong, but I think the NPCs in the economy server (which are essentially individual planetry economies) cannot be coded up using the AI functions in Oolite for NPC ships.

That's for when the 'economy server' starts to grow and morph into something a bit more than just an 'economy server'. I'm saying here - don't hem yourself in! If you make an allowance to support the existing Oolite 'infrastructure', you'll find it much easier to grow the project when you think "Hmmm... wouldn't it be nice if players could do co-operative missions..." and the whole thing starts to snowball.

The server is the same for all people, so permanent changes are part of the server. You wouldn't script them, excepting that it would make the behaviour easier to change, since you'd change the script rather than recompile the server, which isn't a good enough reason by itself.

Oh, but it is a good enough reason all by itself. In fact, it's the whole point of adding scriptability to a program! Making it easy to extend without having to recompile anything.

Look at most types of server - many of them are modular. Look at Apache. Look at even things that run on servers like Drupal. If a server is unscriptable, you also end up making modifications only possible by people who (a) know $LANGUAGE that it's written in and (b) intimately know the internal server architecture, and (c) more than likely need commit access to the source repository.

You could argue that Oolite itself doesn't need scripts - it's open source, therefore, anyone can submit a source change or put patches out. But guess what - no one ever would due to the precipitous learning curve. The scripting system makes it three orders of magnitude for players to turn a cool idea into an add-on for the game. It means there isn't a gigantic, precipitous learning curve for the player, and that most players who are inclined to extend and improve the game can do so. In most instances, OXPs _do_ become permanent on a user's machine, too.

This is the stroke of genius in Oolite, and is what keeps it moving despite the recent development hiatus - is that it's easy to extend. The same principle absolutely applies to servers. If it didn't then system administrators would modify the Unix kernel for their sysadmin tasks, instead of writing a shell scripts (and yes, these shell scripts on servers can be pretty much permanent fixtures). It doesn't matter what the server is - in most cases, if you want it to be easily extensible, providing an easy mechanism to do so will accomplish that job.

[LittleBear]

I'd really like to see a Muti-player game, but I think it would have to be almost a separate universe. The real problem would surley be the missions. In my game, the Constrictor is destroyed, Be Soin has been murdered, The Link have prevailed etc (as I've done these missions). But if you haven't yet then your Universe is different. If you and I were both (say) at Beatle where you are making a hit for the Assassins Guild on "The Fair Wind" but for me the "Fair Wind" was blown to bits months ago, how could the game cope? Or what if you don't have this OXP installed? For me Beatle is a Corperate State with a nebule, two non-standard stations and and extra moon, but for you its an Anarchy with an ordinary planet and low-tech station.

However, a Multi-player branch, where we all have to start as new Jamesons and no Missions are included, rather the Missions are Co-Operative and placed on the server would be cool!

[Killer Wolf]

the more i think, the more i feel online isn't workable. the game would have to be cut back so much or limited in area that it kinda defeats the purpose of what Oolite is at the minute - multiple massive(ish) galaxies. like i said, unless we take off w/ massive audiences, i think the chance of coming across fellow human players would end up being so infrequent as to be indistinguishable from the normal game.
one way - maybe - around this would be for someone to script a simple "defend" OXP. this would pit a pirate/Thargoid attack against (say) a Coriolis if someone triggered a "mission start" event. then, a bunch of players could arrange on this board to meet at a certain time at a certain station, and then one could trigger the event and you could play a group ass-kicking mission. or a convoy mission w/ a lot of pirate attacks scripted maybe. (for pirates, fill in the name of certain illegal-intentioned types who shall remain nameless ~ y'all know who you are! yeah, role play, defend or attack teh convoy, pick your side and let's have at it)
this would perhaps turn it into more of an online shooter than a space trader game, but what do people usually log on for? most games out there seem to be for a "let's kill something, and lots of them" scenario ~ woulda anyone want to log on just to run trading runs for a couple hours? i can do that by myself here - group escort defence, i can't.



oh, and PS :

[Message deleted as per above -- Ahruman]

~ i read a comment and hit the reply button to make a point, i wasn't trying to troll or nothing. hadn't read the rest of the thread so i didn't realise you'd put a stop on it. sorry bout that.

[JensAyton]

I'd really like to see a Muti-player game, but I think it would have to be almost a separate universe. The real problem would surley be the missions. In my game, the Constrictor is destroyed, Be Soin has been murdered, The Link have prevailed etc (as I've done these missions). But if you haven't yet then your Universe is different.

Most MMORPGs work around this type of problem quite successfully by allowing some inconsistency between players. The effects of most missions aren’t really unique and universe-changing. The Nova mission springs to mind as an exception.

[Callas]

the more i think, the more i feel online isn't workable. the game would have to be cut back so much or limited in area that it kinda defeats the purpose of what Oolite is at the minute - multiple massive(ish) galaxies. like i said, unless we take off w/ massive audiences, i think the chance of coming across fellow human players would end up being so infrequent as to be indistinguishable from the normal game.

I think that HIGHLY unlikely to be true. I have the impression you're assuming an even dispersal of players around the Galaxy. What would happen is that players would congregate. Dispersal would not be even.

one way - maybe - around this would be for someone to script a simple "defend" OXP. this would pit a pirate/Thargoid attack against (say) a Coriolis if someone triggered a "mission start" event. then, a bunch of players could arrange on this board to meet at a certain time at a certain station, and then one could trigger the event and you could play a group ass-kicking mission. or a convoy mission w/ a lot of pirate attacks scripted maybe. (for pirates, fill in the name of certain illegal-intentioned types who shall remain nameless ~ y'all know who you are! :-D yeah, role play, defend or attack teh convoy, pick your side and let's have at it)
this would perhaps turn it into more of an online shooter than a space trader game, but what do people usually log on for? most games out there seem to be for a "let's kill something, and lots of them" scenario ~ woulda anyone want to log on just to run trading runs for a couple hours? i can do that by myself here - group escort defence, i can't.

You're thinking full on MMORPG. I'm not considering that. I'm thinking only about the economy server, because that's something I can do with, I believe, tiny client changes. Full MMORPG requires so much work that I believe it is currently impractical.

[Callas]

[snip scripting]

I accept and concur that scripting is useful server side. I recall in fact that Eve-online is heavily written in scripts.

[Callas]

So, I think what I'm initially proposing for the economy server is that it behaves in exactly the same way as the current in game economy.

When a player initiates hyperspace to a system, the client queries the server for the prices and quantities in that system.

The client is modified, in that it will use the server provided libraries API to make a function call to obtain this data from the server, rather than using the internal API for generating economy data for a system.

Players install a "server OXP", which indicates the server IP and the API that it offers, and that the player wishes the server to be used for that functionality, rather than the client.

The game then could be thought of as requiring multiple APIs for distinct functionality segments, which can be obtained internally, or from a server.

Once that initial no-functionality-change server is up and stable, I'd like to make changes such that it becomes worthwhile to trade all of the commodities.

By this, I mean to say that currently, where the economy is so predictable and simple, the best trade is always Rich Industrial to Poor Agricultural, computers in one direction and furs/gems/gold/plat in the other (if you wish to stay legal).

There is no uncertainty, no commerical acumen and the other commodities appear to exist purely to give variety to cargo canisters, because it never makes sense to trade them.

Of course, the server is really not the issue; the issue is what changes might be made to the game and whether they are prudent and desireable or otherwise. Indeed, possibly the changes I've described here could be implemented without a server. But a server opens up other possibilites than cannot be implemented without a server.

[Gareth3377]

Hmmm, I've been thinking about this and have had a couple of thoughts (though I could way of track here - so apologies in advance for any offence caused).

I don't really see the point of an MMORPG - okay it would add a little enhancement to the oolite universe (conversing with fellow players etc.) but what would concern me would be keeping up with the thing. Personally I have very little spare time and to commit to a mmorpg is a huge investment of game time. With single player Oolite I can play at my own pace in a believable universe and not worry that I've missed an important event in the game (like a specific mission). Single player Oolite is almost MMORPG anyway (with the exception of meeting other players). THe universe is developing as incredibly complex OXPs are added. I wonder how many of us (who, on the whole, seem to be in jobs and have families) could actually committ to the MMORPG nature and still develop OXPs.

Personally I prefer the development of the universe through ace and unexpected missions, perculiar events (hello Orb - you seem to be working now). Rather than what amounts to a chat room in the Oolite universe.

Now I maybe way of line here and once again apologies for any offence caused (there seems to have been a few heated arguments recently) I just wanted to put view forward.

Cheers

[JensAyton]

I agree with Gareth on this one. MMORPGness seems like a natural fit, but I know I wouldn’t actually play it except for testing purposes.

The “Oolite Arena” single-system online combat version someone was working on at one stage, that I’d play from time to time.

[Callas]

I agree with Gareth on this one. MMORPGness seems like a natural fit, but I know I wouldn’t actually play it except for testing purposes.

He is talking about full-on MMORPG.

I don't think that's a realistic option because of the work required.

Consider the economy/thargoid/messaging servers. All they do is improve gameplay; they require no extra commitment on the part of players and are optional to all players. I would also say they do not affect existing OXPs.

Really, they are no more than super-OXPs, in that they offer an enhancement which is shared concurrently between a number of players.

Given that OXPs exist and servers will behave in exactly the same way, I don't really see on what basis they can be objected to, unless one also objected to OXPs.

[Gareth3377]

So what would be the point of an Oolite multiplayer. There's two options I could see:

1. A persistant universe (or ooniverse) with set 'events' (missions, system changes, galactic phenomena etc.)

2. A deathmatch type set up (not necessarily a 'deathmatch' but you get my gist) which, IMO, defeats the object of Elite in the first place.

Other than those two scenarios I can't see the point of a MMORPG. The development of the game doesn't need to be 'online'. Look at the Your Ad Here oxp. An incredibly simple (I don't mean programming though ho ho - I couldn't do that) idea, but one that add such depth to the game. A simple update to that OXP with a new advert (e.g. advertising a new ship) and it has become the universe, in a way, has become dynamic.